# Atheists, How Do You Deal With the Problem of Injustice?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [December 7, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627 "2003-12-07T22:20:09Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627/1 "2003-12-07T22:20:09Z")
This is just a little something which occured to me this weekend, so I thought I’d ask, and maybe do something about my own ignorance.
Since I was a little girl, I was aware that we live in an unjust world, and not just because of my father’s telling me “Life is not fair.” Since my best friend had handicaps, I worked out early on that bad and unjust things happen to good people and there’s not much us human beings can do about it. I did what I could and still do, but, if I’m being brutally realistic, I’m overmatched and I don’t know how much difference one person can make. My mindset and upbringing being what they are, I turned to religion to fill in the gaps, telling myself then and now that some outside Entity which I call “God” will even things out in the end, even if I don’t know how. My Christianity enables me to function in an unjust world and do what small things I can to make it less unjust. It may be a copout or a crutch, but it’s an effect enough one which does the job.
That wasn’t witnessing. That was my take on things. My question for the Atheists and Agnostics around here is how do you cope with the idea that we live in an unjust world, if you believe that? Does it bother you? Do you try to do anything about it? From what I’ve seen of you, I’m sure some of you would answer “Yes” to the last two questions. I know the equation “unjust world = unjust God”, but I’m tossing God completely out of this discussion. Given the non-existence of God, how does one cope with injustice?
Respectfully, and curiously!
CJ
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### Author:  [@Gadfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadfly)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2003, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627/2 "2003-12-07T22:22:05Z")
I just face it. The world is unjust. But I’m fortunate to be in the position I’m in, so I’m going to make the best of it, and try to help out those who the world has been even less just to.
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### Author:  [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627/3 "2003-12-07T22:31:29Z")
Ditto to **Gadfly**. I’ve some some plain awful breaks, but whenever I start feeling sorry for myself I remember that I have it better than 90% of the world during 90% of history. I mean, I could be a peasant in 14th-century France; a Jew in 1930s Germany; a slave in 19th-century America.
Life sucks sometimes; “the universe” doesn’t give any more of a damn about you and me than we give to a hill of ants we acciedentally drive over. So you got no choice but to suck it up and cope with whatever hand you’re dealt.
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### Author:  [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2003, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627/4 "2003-12-07T22:49:56Z")
Exactly the same way as you do, except that I don’t believe that there’s some power at the end to “even things out in the end.”
One might reasonably aruge that that makes the call upon atheists to do their part as best they can more clear than the call upon Christians (absent specific commands from God, in the Bible or otherwise) to do the so. We believe that all we’ve got is each other and an uncaring universe to contend with. Not great odds, but it’s worked mostly pretty well so far.
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### Author:  [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2003, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627/5 "2003-12-07T23:05:18Z")
I try to right the injustice myself instead of counting on some higher power that I do not feel the presence of to do it for me. Shades of _Boondock Saints_ maybe…
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### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2003, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627/6 "2003-12-07T23:11:20Z")
William Goldman said it best, IMO, in his novelization of **The Princess Bride** (a book which is even funnier and insightful than the movie, a feat I never thought possible):
> [@](#):
>
> I went to the porch and sipped iced tea and Edith was reading this book and she didn’t put it down when she said, “That’s not necessarily true, you know.”
>
> I said, “How do you mean?”
>
> And that’s when she put her book down. And looked at me. And said it: “Life isn’t fair, Bill. We tell our children that it is, but it’s a terrible thing to do. It’s not only a lie, it’s a cruel lie. **Life is not fair, and it never has been, and it’s never going to be.** ” Would you believe that for me right then it was like one of those comic books where the light bulb goes on over Mandrake the Magician’s head?
>
> “It isn’t!” I said, so loud I really startled her. “You’re right! It’s not fair.” I was so happy if I’d known how to dance, I’d have started dancing. “Isn’t that great, isn’t it terrific?” I think along here Edith must have thought I was well on my way to being bonkers.
>
> But it meant so much to me to have it said and out and free and flying - that was the discontent I had endured the night my father stopped reading, I realized right then. That was the reconciliation I was trying to make and couldn’t.
>
> And that’s what I think this book’s about. All those Columbia experts can spiel all they want about the delicious satire; they’re crazy. This book says, “life’s not fair” and I’m telling you, one and all, you better believe it. I got a fat spoiled son - he’s not gonna nag Miss Rheingold. And he’s always gonna be fat, even if he gets skinny he’ll still be fat and he’ll still be spoiled and life will never be enough to make him happy, and that’s my fault maybe - make it all my fault, if you want - the point is, we’re not created equal, for the rich they sing, life isn’t fair. I got a cold wife; she’s brilliant, she’s stimulating, she’s terrific; there’s no love; that’s okay too, **just so long as we don’t keep expecting everything to somehow even out for us before we die.**
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### Author:  [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627/7 "2003-12-07T23:16:25Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Siege \*
> …Since my best friend had handicaps, I worked out early on that bad and unjust things happen to good people and there’s not much us human beings can do about it. I did what I could and still do, but, if I’m being brutally realistic, I’m overmatched and I don’t know how much difference one person can make. My mindset and upbringing being what they are, I turned to religion to fill in the gaps, telling myself then and now that some outside Entity which I call “God” will even things out in the end, even if I don’t know how. My Christianity enables me to function in an unjust world and do what small things I can to make it less unjust.
>
> …My question for the Atheists and Agnostics around here is how do you cope with the idea that we live in an unjust world, if you believe that? Does it bother you? Do you try to do anything about it? From what I’ve seen of you, I’m sure some of you would answer “Yes” to the last two questions. I know the equation “unjust world = unjust God”, but I’m tossing God completely out of this discussion. Given the non-existence of God, how does one cope with injustice?
Perhaps I could start by asking you some questions:
If God is going to even things out, why do **you** need to do anything?
Why did God set up the World this way?
Sure there are problems in the World. **Since I don’t believe in God, I know it’s up to us to do something about them.**
My parents brought me up to behave well. I feel good when I can help others, and sleep soundly when I can look back on a day of ‘sociability’. (If that’s not a word, it should be!)
I don’t think you should take the troubles of the World on yourself - it’s rare that someone like Gandhi or Martin Luther King can make a difference.
I could ask (opening a really BIG can of worms) if some situations have been made worse by people believing in God? (usually different ones)
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### Author:  [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627/8 "2003-12-07T23:16:59Z")
I just wanted to say thank you for all you’ve posted so far – some of my favorite people are here, not to mention one of my favorite books (you’re right about _The Princess Bride_, **rjung** ). It’s just that injustice is one of my hot buttons. It makes me want to summon up my white horse and ride off into the sunset tilting at windmills. It’s just that after getting thrown to the ground a few times, I wanted someone covering my back. Looking around this thread, it looks like I do.
I’m looking forward to reading more!
CJ
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### Author:  [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2003, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627/9 "2003-12-07T23:24:44Z")
Sorry, **glee** , I didn’t preview and missed your post. I believe that God expects us human beings running around to try and do something about injustice, at least we should if we say we’re trying to serve Him. I also freely admit that some Atheists do a very good job of fighting injustice, while some Christians seem to encourage it. Since my diocese is in the epicenter of a split in the Episcopal Church, I also can’t deny that belief in God sometimes make things worse. I may be religious, but I’m not _that_ delusional!😉
As to why the world is the way it is, I honestly don’t know. It’s a question which has troubled me all my life and, while my Wiccan friends tell me it’s intended to be a learning experience, I don’t know that I find that answer satisfactory. I do know that it’s one I intend to ask God at the end of all things, assuming He exists.
Of course, I could mention one petty injustice in that not one of you lot, whom I like and admire, wished me a “Happy Birthday” yesterday! 😉
CJ
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### Author:  [@Doc\_Nickel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Nickel)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627/10 "2003-12-07T23:59:27Z")
Quite simply, “Justice” is a human concept, just like “good” and “evil”.
Nature, Reality, has no concept of “Justice”, any more than a table leg has a concept of “love” or “hate”.
Thus, things happen because, well, things happen. Call it mere coincidence, although the theists tend to reply “there is no such thing as ‘coincidence’, God has a reason for everything.”
Just this morning, on another board, a fellow made an emotional posting; it seems his Grandfather had had a heart attack, and while recovering, the fellow’s Bible group added him to their prayers. A few weeks later, Grandpa was well enough to attend Church, where, in the middle of the service, had another heart attack, and is currently in critical condition back at the hospital.
The poster simply could not fathom why “God” would let such a thing happen in His Sanctuary, His House. Especially after they had prayed so fervently for his recovery.
Most of the replies to that post served up more pap to the fellow, regurgitating the usual “God moves in mysterious ways” and “It was his time, God’s calling him Home” and “It’s a message, it’s telling us God won’t solve all our problems for us” platitudes.
These are all, of course, no more than _excuses_. A way to try and correlate the mythological wonderland a religion trafficks in, with cold, harsh reality.
Nature has no consciousness, no emotion, no sense of vengeance, no compassion. The reality of nature is, more accurately, “kill or be killed”, and we are, for all our strengths, fragile animals with finite lifespans.
And in that “finite lifespan” comes the reality of Death. All things die, even stars and planets. That is the one immutable law of reality, and faced with that, the knowledge that you, personally, **will** die- perhaps tomorrow in a car crash, perhaps fifty years from now in an nursing home- we invent a “cure”. A placebo, a pablum that makes us feel a little better about that ultimate finality.
And just as a placebo works only by the patients’ _belief_ that it works, that soothing ointment of the afterlife only works by _Faith_- _I know it works, please don’t tell me otherwise._
Personally, I know Death is a reality. It is inescapable, inevitable. I do not fear it- that’s like being afraid of the tides, or autumn, or the wind. There is nothing I can do about them, they were here before I was, and they’ll be here long after I’m gone.
To fear Death is pointless, a waste; it serves no purpose save to make you afraid to face the world without that placebo you firmly believe can defeat the undefeatable. That placebo is said- by those equally afraid of Reality- to provide us a far better- and longer, eternal, even- life after this one.
My, that _does_ sound good, doesn’t it? Not only is Death, in this life, not the ‘end’, it’s the beginning of something _even better_.
So what if the stories we’re told don’t mesh well- if at all- with Reality. The Supreme Being , the All-Powerful Creator who can defeat Death, can, at a whim (we’re told) manipulate reality to suit His needs- why not? He made it all in the first place. (Or so we’re told.)
Thus, nothing is too implausible for the Creator (after all, he’s going to keep you from dying permanently, remember, a feat for which you should be suitably grateful; cash is accepted) not even the creation and subsequent obliteration of several million cubic miles of seawater (which, if you think about it, seems needlessly wasteful, considering if He could create and then destroy the water, why not simply skip right to destroying his flawed creations- itself a conundrum from a “perfect creator”- but then, you’re not supposed to think about whether or not the Placebo is actually working, you just have to _believe_ that it does.)
God and Heaven- or whatever afterlife you envision- are myths. They’re opiates to blinder believers to the Reality of both Nature and death.
Once you understand that, you will realize how the concept of Reality being either “just” or “unjust” is pure fallacy.
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### Author:  [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2003, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627/11 "2003-12-08T00:04:25Z")
Saying that life is or isn’t fair or just is a necessarily religious question. It implies that your actions have not been given their rightful reward or punishment from god. An athiest would not formulate such a question. An athiest would not think that a “good” person somehow “deserves” more in life than a “bad” person.
A point an athiest might make is that he is unlucky. There’s nothing one can do about luck, but that statement itself is also revealing. The truth is that life’s events are largely irrelevant to our perception of it. The issue is essentially optimism vs pessimism, and one’s fortunes really have very little to do with one’s outlook. And outlook is merely based on the chemicals in one’s brain. If the person is happy and cheerful, he’ll almost certainly think himself to be lucky in everything that happens to him. If the person is in depression, then every event is unlucky. Life is exactly like the half-filled glass. I’m sure there were many 14th century peasants or 19th century slaves that were far happier and than many of the “fortunate” millionaires of today, and those peasants and slaves would surely consider themselves luckier. Consider for example a peasant who feels blessed and fortunate for having a meal of meat and a stockbroker who feels miserable and extremely unlucky to loose half of his life savings and now have _only_ two million.
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### Author:  [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2003, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627/12 "2003-12-08T00:07:40Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Siege \*
> \*\*Sorry, **glee** , I didn’t preview and missed your post. I believe that God expects us human beings running around to try and do something about injustice, at least we should if we say we’re trying to serve Him. I also freely admit that some Atheists do a very good job of fighting injustice, while some Christians seem to encourage it. Since my diocese is in the epicenter of a split in the Episcopal Church, I also can’t deny that belief in God sometimes make things worse. I may be religious, but I’m not _that_ delusional!😉
This is very fair. I feel slightly guilty in pressing you further:
- why did the Creator set up so much misery? (babies dying etc)
- is your belief in God that he will balance the scales later, or that you need belief in Him to cope?
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Siege \*
> As to why the world is the way it is, I honestly don’t know. It’s a question which has troubled me all my life and, while my Wiccan friends tell me it’s intended to be a learning experience, I don’t know that I find that answer satisfactory. I do know that it’s one I intend to ask God at the end of all things, assuming He exists.
Sadly to me this is evidence that the Wolrd was not set up by a loving God.
P.S. Happy Birthday! 😃
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### Author:  [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2003, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627/13 "2003-12-08T00:29:15Z")
The world is neither just nor unjust. It just is.
Justice, it seems to me, pertains to human relationships. Where injustice exists it is fully within our power to overcome it - although it often seems that the challenge is insurmountable.
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### Author:  [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2003, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627/14 "2003-12-08T00:46:48Z")
I came across this quote from Kennedy in another thread …
> [@](#):
>
> I believe in human dignity as the source of national purpose, in human liberty as the source of national action, in the human heart as the source of national compassion, and in the human mind as the source of our invention and our ideas. It is, I believe, the faith in our fellow citizens as individuals and as people that lies at the heart of the liberal faith. For liberalism is not so much a party creed or set of fixed platform promises as it is an attitude of mind and heart, a faith in man’s ability through the experiences of his reason and judgment to increase for himself and his fellow men the amount of justice and freedom and brotherhood which all human life deserves.
[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/presidents/35\_kennedy/psources/ps\_nyliberal.html](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/presidents/35_kennedy/psources/ps_nyliberal.html)
It pretty much captures how I feel about injustice and about our ability to overcome it.
Slightly off-topic - I wonder if the \*correspondence between liberal ideas and atheism and, conversely, conservative ideas and faith in God has anything to do with where we believe the ultimate responsibility lies for overcoming injustice ?
\*I don’t mean to suggest that all liberals are atheists or vice versa … but yesterday’s NY Times had a chart that showed a remarkable correspondence between faith and political tendencies.
[http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/06/politics/campaigns/06VALU.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/06/politics/campaigns/06VALU.html) (free registration required. )
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### Author:  [@Gmork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gmork)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2003, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627/15 "2003-12-08T01:03:35Z")
I have come mostly too late to add anything much to this thread - suffice to say that, as an atheist, I agree with almost everything that has been said by the quicker atheists.
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### Author:  [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2003, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627/16 "2003-12-08T01:07:52Z")
As an atheist who derives his ethic from natural rights justice is easy to come by. However it applies only to human relationships. There is neither justice nor injustice in for example, an earthquake that kills people. There is however in the ways we interact with each other.
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### Author:  [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2003, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627/17 "2003-12-08T01:19:34Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Doc Nickel \*
> \*\* Nature, Reality, has no concept of “Justice”, any more than a table leg has a concept of “love” or “hate”. \*\*
This is factually incorrect. I have a table leg which hates me and attacks me in the middle of the night when I go to the bathroom. 😉
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### Author:  [@Doc\_Nickel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Nickel)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2003, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627/18 "2003-12-08T01:42:55Z")
Yes, but it’s a _passive_ aggression.
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### Author:  [@Doc\_Nickel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Nickel)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2003, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627/19 "2003-12-08T01:45:53Z")
😃
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### Author:  [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2003, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-how-do-you-deal-with-the-problem-of-injustice/217627/20 "2003-12-08T01:56:40Z")
We suck it up like everyone else.
However, I admit that it’s possible that I’ve never suffered, or personally witnessed, any really great injustice. It’s possible that if I do, I would turn to religion. However, that doesn’t make me believe any more now.
Also, I seem to have a belief that _people_ are basically good, which helps. Again, due to lack of experience, but the belief’s holding on somehow 🙂
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