# Atheists in foxholes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808 "2011-11-13T17:46:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/21 "2011-11-13T22:12:46Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Meh, if one only believes in God while under duress, what does THAT prove? To some, it proves that _really_ we all believe. It just needs someone to twist our arm to make us stop pretending otherwise… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/22 "2011-11-13T22:16:22Z")
Is it that far a step to go from “In the right extreme circumstances atheists will convert” to “If we expose them to the right extreme circumstances we can convert atheists”? ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/23 "2011-11-13T22:22:05Z")
I wonder, would Jesus have been a Seal, or a Green Beret? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/24 "2011-11-13T22:23:15Z")
Considering how pervasive religion is in our society, anyone who’s smart enough to think independently is smart enough to avoid foxholes. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/25 "2011-11-13T22:25:10Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > I wonder, would Jesus have been a Seal, or a Green Beret? Green Berets will go to Hell and back. Seals won’t come back until the battle is over. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/26 "2011-11-13T22:26:32Z")
I’ve never understood why the existence of atheists bothers religious people so damn much. They have their beliefs, I have mine. I don’t mock them to their faces, nor do I feel like it’s important for me to try to “convert” them to rational thinking. It’s pretty sad they have whole discussions about atheism and actually believe they are morally superior. I mean, really, obsessed much? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/27 "2011-11-13T22:29:37Z")
I’ve never really understood what the people saying this was meant to convey. I think it’s true to an extent - faced with imminent danger makes you desperate enough to do anything to relieve the pressure - but when religious people say this, are they bragging? Are they trying to say “when the time comes, you’ll see that I was right?” Because to me it sounds like “when you are scared out of your fucking mind, completely desperate and irrational, you will finally crack and fall into the same beliefs as me - beliefs I chose to hold under no such durress”, which isn’t exactly a bragging point. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/28 "2011-11-13T22:31:32Z")
I guess one obvious thing is him not considering the obvious possibility that atheists get discriminated against for medals or promotion in the US army. Or perhaps their beliefs are glossed over when they get one. He takes it as a given that if they are rare that its the atheists fault that is so and fails to consider various other possibilities. Otara ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/29 "2011-11-13T22:46:01Z")
Others have already explained why adequately enough but I think that that LtCol is one ignorant, prejudiced, small minded monkey. He brought shame upon his service. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/30 "2011-11-13T23:17:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is there a fault in the atheist psyche that stops them from making battlefield sacrifices ? Seems to me the good Lt. Colonel is saying : “The problem with atheists is, they’re not quite as insane as us”. No matter how you romanticize it, jumping on grenades is not a very rational course of action. Nor a very smart one, in the grand scheme of things - “don’t try and be a hero” seems to be a recurring motif in modern military training, even though they still decorate them. Mostly posthumously. On the whole though, I’d say the good Lt. Colonel is full of either ignorance or shit. There are plenty of atheist servicemen and women out there, plenty more who just don’t give a hoot either way. In fact, from superficial observation I would say the culture of the American grunt today very much revolves around not giving a fuck, and showing your buddies just how many fucks you don’t give, about any thing. Whether that’s a good or bad thing I don’t rightly know. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/31 "2011-11-14T00:12:39Z")
Silver Star, 2 Purple Hearts, WWII. I’m not sure what he entered under ‘religion’, or what options his paperwork even offered, maybe his parent’s religion, but he was an atheist thru and thru. The War didn’t change that any… ---
**Author:** ![PandaBear77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@PandaBear77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PandaBear77)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/32 "2011-11-14T00:20:09Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > Oh yeah… _btw, if you aren’t an officer_, a silver star,\* hell a BRONZE star, is pretty hard to come by. \* I personally know one enlisted guy who got the silver star. If the story wasn’t documented, nobody would believe it. Silver stars are rare, if you aren’t an officer, that is. Italics mine. My father was a Private First Class and had 2 bronze stars. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/33 "2011-11-14T00:25:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is there a fault in the atheist psyche that stops them from making battlefield sacrifices,[…] There are about a dozen presumptions in that question. The guest speaker you mentioned is ignorant and uneducated and so were his statements. Christian religion – not the only one – is mostly based on exploiting the basic human instinct of fear of death, and that’s exactly what he was using to exploit his audience. One of the mentally disturbed assumptions he made, is that if a “god fearing” soldier wanted to sacrifice himself in battle, then his god must have approved of his murderous activity of waging war – directly opposing a major commandment of “you shall not kill”. The commandment does does not have qualification clauses, it doesn’t allow killing only when a “god preferred country’s citizen” does it. Ask the speaker to educate himself before he speaks in public again. ---
**Author:** ![PandaBear77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@PandaBear77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PandaBear77)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/34 "2011-11-14T00:29:24Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > There are about a dozen presumptions in that question. > > The guest speaker you mentioned is ignorant and uneducated and so were his statements. > > Christian religion – not the only one – is mostly based on exploiting the basic human instinct of fear of death, and that’s exactly what he was using to exploit his audience. > > One of the mentally disturbed assumptions he made, is that if a “god fearing” soldier wanted to sacrifice himself in battle, then his god must have approved of his murderous activity of waging war – directly opposing a major commandment of “you shall not kill”. The commandment does does not have qualification clauses, it doesn’t allow killing only when a “god preferred country’s citizen” does it. > > Ask the speaker to educate himself before he speaks in public again. The commandment is actually “thou shalt not murder,” not “kill.” You might wanna educate yourself before you post stuff like that. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/35 "2011-11-14T00:34:44Z")
> [@PandaBear77](#): > > The commandment is actually “thou shalt not murder,” not “kill.” > > You might wanna educate yourself before you post stuff like that. Read the original before you comment. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![PandaBear77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@PandaBear77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PandaBear77)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/36 "2011-11-14T00:40:48Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Read the original before you comment. > > Thanks. I did read the original, actually. However - what I posted was bitchy and uncalled for. I apologize. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/37 "2011-11-14T00:41:53Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > I wonder, would Jesus have been a Seal, or a Green Beret? I believe he was the walrus. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/38 "2011-11-14T00:45:07Z")
> [@PandaBear77](#): > > I did read the original, actually. > > However - what I posted was bitchy and uncalled for. I apologize. Seriously. No need to apologize to me. I don’t take forum posts as personal attacks. Just to clarify - when I said “original” I did not mean original translation to English. The original Greek commandment is “ού φονεύσεις” which does not make any statement regarding the intention of the act, like “killing” and “murdering” does in the English language. “Φονεύω” in ancient Greek means “kill” or “murder” or an act that results in the death of a human being, independently of the cause or intent. The Christian holy book is clear on this : Do Not Kill - no qualifiers. That’s why the speaker is ignorant and what he said was an attempt to exploit his audience’s fear of death for his benefit. ---
**Author:** ![PandaBear77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@PandaBear77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PandaBear77)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/39 "2011-11-14T00:49:07Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > No need to apologize to me. I don’t take forum posts as personal attacks. > > Just to clarify - when I said “original” I did not mean original translation to English. > > The original Greek word is “ού φονεύσεις” which does not make any statement regarding the intention of the act, like “killing” and “murdering” does in the English language. > > “Φονεύω” in ancient Greek means “kill” or “murder” or an act that results to the death of a human being independently of the cause or intent. > > The Christian holy book is clear on this : Do Not Kill - no qualifiers. > > That’s why the speaker is ignorant and what he said was an attempt to exploit his audience’s fear of death for his benefit. If I’m not mistaken, the commandment in question comes from the Old Testament, which was originally written in Hebrew, not Greek. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/40 "2011-11-14T00:49:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Indygrrl** : > I’ve never understood why the existence of atheists bothers religious people so damn much. It makes sense, if you start with the appropriate premises. If a religious person genuinely believes that only believers can go to Heaven (or achieve Nirvanna or get the good reincarnations or whatever happens to good people), and that everyone else goes to Hell (or whatever happens to bad people), and if that religious person is also a decent person, then e’ll naturally want to help everyone achieve the good end and avoid the bad one. In their eyes, they’re trying to do you a very big and important favor-- You might as well ask what motivates people to try to save others from drowning or from a burning building, or the like. Now, I personally _don’t_ believe that Heaven is restricted to members of any particular religion, so I don’t have any problem with atheists. But I can understand the reasoning why someone might. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808.md?page=3)