# Atheists in foxholes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808 "2011-11-13T17:46:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/41 "2011-11-14T00:56:51Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It makes sense, if you start with the appropriate premises. If a religious person genuinely believes that only believers can go to Heaven (or achieve Nirvanna or get the good reincarnations or whatever happens to good people), and that everyone else goes to Hell (or whatever happens to bad people), and if that religious person is also a decent person, then e’ll naturally want to help everyone achieve the good end and avoid the bad one. In their eyes, they’re trying to do you a very big and important favor-- You might as well ask what motivates people to try to save others from drowning or from a burning building, or the like. > > Now, I personally _don’t_ believe that Heaven is restricted to members of any particular religion, so I don’t have any problem with atheists. But I can understand the reasoning why someone might. Nah, this explains why the religious often want to proselytize. It doesn’t explain why religious people act rude, dismissive, or insulting towards atheists. Not to say all do, but certainly many do, especially of the evangelical bent. I think the reasoning there comes more from resentment: atheists “get away” with being naughty people in a way religious folks rarely do, and don’t have to make some of the same sacrifices. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/42 "2011-11-14T01:01:14Z")
From wiki: > [@](#): > > The ancient Hebrew texts make a distinction between the moral and legal prohibition of shedding of innocent blood and killing in battle.[41] For example, the Torah prohibits murder, but sanctions killing in legitimate battle.[42][43] The Bible often praises the exploits of soldiers against enemies in legitimate battle. One of David’s mighty men is credited with killing eight hundred men with the spear,[44] and Abishai is credited with killing three hundred men.[45] Of course, David himself is portrayed as a hero for killing Goliath in battle.[46] > **[Thou shalt not kill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_shall_not_kill)** > > Thou shalt not kill (LXX, KJV; Ancient Greek: Οὐ φονεύσεις, romanized: Ou phoneúseis), You shall not murder (NIV, Biblical Hebrew: לֹא תִּרְצָח, romanized: Lo tirṣaḥ) or Do not murder (CSB), is a moral imperative included as one of the Ten Commandments in the Torah. > The imperative not to kill is in the context of unlawful killing resulting in bloodguilt. > The commandment against murder can be viewed as a legal matter governing human relationships, noting that the first four commandments relate s... The original Hebrew seems to indicate murder rather than kill - usually based on the concept of bloodguilt. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/43 "2011-11-14T01:03:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is there a fault in the atheist psyche that stops them from making battlefield sacrifices, or is the fault in the military itself for creating an atmosphere that atheists to hide their true nature? I suppose the guy could have used the same logic to say there are no gays in foxholes because the number of openly gay winners of these medals is probably less than the number of atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/44 "2011-11-14T02:37:43Z")
This may be of interest to you Czarcasm: [Atheists in Foxholes Monument](http://ffrf.org/outreach/atheists-in-foxholes/) In Alabama, of all places. Seems to be a private group rather than a governmental monument, but still. ---
**Author:** ![Tammi\_Terrell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Tammi\_Terrell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tammi_Terrell)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/45 "2011-11-14T02:49:34Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > How far back does that saying go? It would be interesting to know the histoical context in which it originated. The general observation goes back at least as far as WWI. [http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0609D&L=ADS-L&P=R7473](http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0609D&L=ADS-L&P=R7473) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/46 "2011-11-14T02:51:25Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > I’ve never understood why the existence of atheists bothers religious people so damn much. For many believers, it is a central feature of their beliefs that belief in a god is necessary to be happy and moral. Atheists who aren’t miserable psychopaths disprove their claim (thus the prevalence of atheists in popular entertainment who are miserable or warped), and that upsets them. Also, there’s quite a few who are convinced that the existence of God is self evident, and who refuse to believe in atheists. We’re just lying. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/47 "2011-11-14T03:15:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Nah, this explains why the religious often want to proselytize. It doesn’t explain why religious people act rude, dismissive, or insulting towards atheists. Not to say all do, but certainly many do, especially of the evangelical bent. What was intended as an honest attempt to proselytize might well end up coming across as rude, dismissive, or insulting. Though of course, there are other, less altruistic, explanations as well. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/48 "2011-11-14T03:19:36Z")
This is really a topic for another thread, but the reason religious people can be more tolerant towards people of conflicting religions than atheists is essentially “SANTA CLAUS IS REAL! I BELIEVE IN SANTA CLAUS!” “No, Santa isn’t real, but the tooth fairy is!” “You’re both fools, it’s leprechauns that run the world” Atheist: “Guys… come on… seriously?” “LET’S ALL AGREE THAT WE REALLY FUCKING HATE THAT GUY” ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/49 "2011-11-14T03:33:26Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > I believe he was the walrus. You’ve got it all mixed up. The walrus was St. Paul, Jesus was the eggman, Judas was the glass onion, which makes St. Peter the…uh…blue jay? I think. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/50 "2011-11-14T03:43:27Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > This is really a topic for another thread, but the reason religious people can be more tolerant towards people of conflicting religions than atheists is essentially > > “SANTA CLAUS IS REAL! I BELIEVE IN SANTA CLAUS!” > > “No, Santa isn’t real, but the tooth fairy is!” > > “You’re both fools, it’s leprechauns that run the world” > > Atheist: “Guys… come on… seriously?” > > “LET’S ALL AGREE THAT WE REALLY FUCKING HATE THAT GUY” I don’t see why atheists are so hated. We’re so easy to get along with. Christians don’t believe in Islam. Muslims don’t believe in Hinduism. Hindus don’t believe in Buddhism. Buddhists don’t believe in Christianity. And we agree with all of them. ---
**Author:** ![ProbablyProcrastinating](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/57b2e6/32.png) [@ProbablyProcrastinating](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ProbablyProcrastinating)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/51 "2011-11-14T03:48:53Z")
I have met more atheists per person in Afghanistan than anywhere else. They pray in public but they don’t believe in god or Allah. That whole country is one big foxhole. Their choice not to see exile–and millions do–is proof of their bravery. Most of them were socialists that couldn’t stand the thought of the fundies winning after all that time. I remember their faces so well… The saying is bullshit. Ever read “All Quiet on the Western Front”? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/52 "2011-11-14T13:17:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is there a fault in the atheist psyche that stops them from making battlefield sacrifices, or is the fault in the military itself for creating an atmosphere that atheists to hide their true nature? I don’t believe so, but one is based on death and the other is based on life, but it is willingness to accept the next level (even if it is believed to be non-existence) that is what is needed. As such it may be less likely to have a atheist in a foxhole, also because believers believe they are divinely protected, but then again atheists may see death as a better alternative to this live. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/53 "2011-11-14T13:31:57Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > . . . one is based on death and the other is based on life . . . Yes, but not the way you mean it. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/54 "2011-11-14T13:52:56Z")
My personal opinion only, but I think that when things are going REALLY, REALLY badly, and you are REALLY ,REALLY scared of dying, you’d pray to the Easter Bunny if you thought it might help. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/55 "2011-11-14T13:59:06Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > My personal opinion only, but I think that when things are going REALLY, REALLY badly, and you are REALLY ,REALLY scared of dying, you’d pray to the Easter Bunny if you thought it might help. Except that an atheist isn’t going to think that a nonexistent god is going to help, any more than a Christian is going to try praying to Apollo or Marduk or Azathoth. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/56 "2011-11-14T14:00:14Z")
I think you could make a case, that in really out-of-your-mind-scared irrational moments, you will pray to a generic higher power of some sort, or at least the default higher power of your culture, rather than thinking about the specifics of it like that. More like a “anyone who can hear my prayer, save me!” desperation sort of thing. The line in a monotheistic, single religion dominant culture tends to blur these lines because saying “God help me!” can either be vague and generic in that way, or specifically referring to the Christian god. That makes it more ambiguous than saying “Apollo help me!” Edit: Especially since our word “God” in English can refer to a generic higher power or specifically the Christian one. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/57 "2011-11-14T14:12:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Because to me it sounds like “when you are scared out of your fucking mind, completely desperate and irrational, you will finally crack and fall into the same beliefs as me - beliefs I chose to hold under no such durress”, which isn’t exactly a bragging point. For what it’s worth, that’s pretty much the point assorted believers have made when told about my grandfather: the guy went off to war convinced there was a God, and became an atheist precisely because he was surrounded by the horrors of WWII. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/58 "2011-11-14T14:46:47Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Yes, but not the way you mean it. 1 How do I mean it and 2 why is it not that way 😕 ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/59 "2011-11-14T16:00:05Z")
Speaking as a Catholic… SUPPOSE it were true that, at moments of extreme stress, many (or even most) atheists nervously pray to a God they’re not sure is really there. What does that prove, exactly? Years back, when I read the novel “Jaws,” Captain Quint offered an analogy that seems relevant here. He said (this isn’t a direct quote, I’m writing this from memory), "When a plumber is working on a particularly nasty problem, he may get angry at a pipe, he may curse at it, he may even bang on it with his wrench. But later on, when he’s finished the job and has calmed down, he KNOWS how silly it was to act that way. He doesn’t REALLY believe that the pipe is a living, sentient being, and may even laugh at himself for momentarily getting angry at an inanimate object. Well, my sense is, even IF many atheists are sometimes momentarily tempted to embrace something they normally regard as a silly superstition, it doesn’t follow that they continue to embrace that superstition after the immediate crisis is over, nor does it prove that the superstition is true. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/60 "2011-11-14T16:15:56Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Speaking as a Catholic… > > SUPPOSE it were true that, at moments of extreme stress, many (or even most) atheists nervously pray to a God they’re not sure is really there. What does that prove, exactly? > > Years back, when I read the novel “Jaws,” Captain Quint offered an analogy that seems relevant here. He said (this isn’t a direct quote, I’m writing this from memory), "When a plumber is working on a particularly nasty problem, he may get angry at a pipe, he may curse at it, he may even bang on it with his wrench. But later on, when he’s finished the job and has calmed down, he KNOWS how silly it was to act that way. He doesn’t REALLY believe that the pipe is a living, sentient being, and may even laugh at himself for momentarily getting angry at an inanimate object. > > Well, my sense is, even IF many atheists are sometimes momentarily tempted to embrace something they normally regard as a silly superstition, it doesn’t follow that they continue to embrace that superstition after the immediate crisis is over, nor does it prove that the superstition is true. It does give insight into the core being of humanity. When all is stripped away a person is open to anything even beyond their beliefs. As for the plumber, I do believe their are spiritual forces that sometimes frustrate our work, and also ones that can guide us so things go smoothly, so yelling at the pipe is not all that unusual IMHO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808.md?page=4)