# Atheists in foxholes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808 "2011-11-13T17:46:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/61 "2011-11-14T16:23:15Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > My personal opinion only, but I think that when things are going REALLY, REALLY badly, and you are REALLY ,REALLY scared of dying, you’d pray to the Easter Bunny if you thought it might help. So maybe the expression should be “everyone who’s in a foxhole believes in the Easter Bunny.” That makes as much sense as the usual phrasing. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I just came from service at a local Episcopal church, and there was a guest speaker for Veteran’s Day services that happened to be a retired Lt. Colonel. He spoke on the phrase “There are no atheists in foxholes” and said that most people misunderstand it to mean that, under pressure on the front lines, atheists will seek out God. He preached that the real meaning was that atheists almost never make it to the front line because they lack what it takes to make sacrifices of that sort. I’ve always wondered how people who say crap like this can be oblivious to how offensive it is. Just make a simple substitution singling out a different group of people: “There are no Jews in foxholes - most people misunderstand it to mean that under pressure on the front lines, Jews will seek out Jesus. The _real_ meaning is that Jews almost never make it to the front line because they lack what it takes to make sacrifices of that sort.” How many people would have sat quietly in their pews while the Lt. Colonel said this? And why is it any different to say what he actually said? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/62 "2011-11-14T16:50:04Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > So maybe the expression should be “everyone who’s in a foxhole believes in the Easter Bunny.” That makes as much sense as the usual phrasing. No it makes no sense at all. There is no pressure to change one’s belief in Peter Cottentail, as Peter C. is not known for saving people. It is a very illogical statement that you make here and a flawed argument. There is pressure to believe in a being that can save one however. Once one starts believing however it may challenge other fast held beliefs, because the block that has prevented belief in the past has been overcome, and one must start anew in their new belief system, so in this respect it could cause belief in Peter, but just a side effect of belief in God which was a necessity for that person. > [@](#): > > I’ve always wondered how people who say crap like this can be oblivious to how offensive it is. Just make a simple substitution singling out a different group of people: “There are no Jews in foxholes - most people misunderstand it to mean that under pressure on the front lines, Jews will seek out Jesus. The _real_ meaning is that Jews almost never make it to the front line because they lack what it takes to make sacrifices of that sort.” > > How many people would have sat quietly in their pews while the Lt. Colonel said this? And why is it any different to say what he actually said? I didn’t like his interpretation either, and found it divisive. I rarely challenge one in such a situation publicly, though it has happened. It is sometimes best to let a fool continue in his folly. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/63 "2011-11-14T17:23:26Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > As such it may be less likely to have a atheist in a foxhole, also because believers believe they are divinely protected, but then again atheists may see death as a better alternative to this live. In one of the many Congolese Civil Wars the rebels were given magic amulets and told that they were divinely protected. They got mowed down. Christians believing that would get just as mowed down. I can see it now. Soldier, believing in divine protection, charges the enemy and gets his ass shot off. He goes up to heaven, sees God at the welcome reception, and starts complaining about how the divine protection didn’t work. “Schmuck!” says God, “why do you think I gave you the foxhole?” ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/64 "2011-11-14T17:35:40Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > “why do you think I gave you the foxhole?” LOL 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/65 "2011-11-14T18:29:47Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > So maybe the expression should be “everyone who’s in a foxhole believes in the Easter Bunny.” That makes as much sense as the usual phrasing. To reiterate **SENOR BEEF** ]s point we’re not tralking about people suddenly believing in one particular religions tenets, but people praying to a generic higher power. But really speaking this debate is academic. Those who have been in situations that are very likely to result in their imminent death understand the saying about there being no atheists in F.H.s. Those who haven’t, posting from the safety of their homes/libraries etc., may well believe that when it comes to that situation they’ll be cool, true to their beliefs, and accept death with resignation, don’t. I think that in the unlikely event that they ever do face a likely violent death in the very near future that they may not be so stauch in their beliefs and probably won’t be as brave as they think that they will be. If they are then good luck to them, but I think its unlikely to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/66 "2011-11-14T19:03:27Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > To reiterate **SENOR BEEF** ]s point we’re not tralking about people suddenly believing in one particular religions tenets, but people praying to a generic higher power. > > But really speaking this debate is academic. > > Those who have been in situations that are very likely to result in their imminent death understand the saying about there being no atheists in F.H.s. > > Those who haven’t, posting from the safety of their homes/libraries etc., may well believe that when it comes to that situation they’ll be cool, true to their beliefs, and accept death with resignation, don’t. > > I think that in the unlikely event that they ever do face a likely violent death in the very near future that they may not be so stauch in their beliefs and probably won’t be as brave as they think that they will be. > > If they are then good luck to them, but I think its unlikely to say the least. However unlikely, it still happens. I’m not sure how much closer to the saying you can get right now but being deployed in Iraq or Afghanistan. I watched an RPG coming at the window of my truck, and never once asked any god for anything. Maybe I’m the only one, but I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/67 "2011-11-14T19:09:41Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Those who haven’t, posting from the safety of their homes/libraries etc., may well believe that when it comes to that situation they’ll be cool, true to their beliefs, and accept death with resignation, don’t. > > I think that in the unlikely event that they ever do face a likely violent death in the very near future that they may not be so stauch in their beliefs and probably won’t be as brave as they think that they will be. > > If they are then good luck to them, but I think its unlikely to say the least. That’s just religious arrogance speaking; the deep seated attitude among many believers that atheists deep down are believers just like them, that it’s just impossible for anyone to _really_ be an atheist. Believers have difficulty grasping that there are people who genuinely consider their beliefs ridiculous, and think that we’ll suddenly reveal our true nature and grab for their skycritter under stress. They’re wrong. No matter the danger, I’m not going to call out to something that I consider less likely to be real than Sauron or Darth Vader. It’s not a matter of bravery; I seriously doubt it would even occur to me, because I _genuinely do not believe in gods_. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/68 "2011-11-14T20:26:35Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Those who have been in situations that are very likely to result in their imminent death understand the saying about there being no atheists in F.H.s. > > Those who haven’t, posting from the safety of their homes/libraries etc., may well believe that when it comes to that situation they’ll be cool, true to their beliefs, and accept death with resignation, don’t. Bullshit. A few years ago, I was driving along the road during a storm at night, when the wind and lack of visibility forced me to a stop, sitting in the middle of the road. I then realized that there was a tornado very near me. I wasn’t brave - I was desperately trying to figure out what I should be doing to protect myself - should I try to drive away? Which direction? Should I get out of the car and find a low spot? No, there was crap hitting my car, electrical lines arcing overhead (I later saw that the had fallen onto the road very near me), and I’d be more vulnerable outside it. Not having any better ideas, I stayed where I was. Not once during all this did it even occur to me to appeal to any deity that I didn’t believe exists. I wasn’t brave. I didn’t accept death with resignation. I wasn’t cool. It’s just that there was no thought at all given to any sky-daddy concept. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/69 "2011-11-14T21:34:27Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > I’ve never understood why the existence of atheists bothers religious people so damn much. Some people are insecure and find it threatenign that some people have different opinions. They think the validity of their opinions is undermined by the fact that other people think they’re wrong. It’s a personality flaw that you can find in all kinds of people on all sorts of issues. Just to state the obvious, in whatever figurative or literal sense you use to define foxhole, you will find atheists in foxholes. There is no group of people with a monopoly on courage or selflessness. You could try to make an argument that some groups might have a greater prevalence of traits like that than other groups, but I’m skeptical about even that. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/70 "2011-11-14T21:36:38Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Bullshit. > > A few years ago, I was driving along the road during a storm at night, when the wind and lack of visibility forced me to a stop, sitting in the middle of the road. I then realized that there was a tornado very near me. I wasn’t brave - I was desperately trying to figure out what I should be doing to protect myself - should I try to drive away? Which direction? Should I get out of the car and find a low spot? No, there was crap hitting my car, electrical lines arcing overhead (I later saw that the had fallen onto the road very near me), and I’d be more vulnerable outside it. Not having any better ideas, I stayed where I was. > > Not once during all this did it even occur to me to appeal to any deity that I didn’t believe exists. I wasn’t brave. I didn’t accept death with resignation. I wasn’t cool. It’s just that there was no thought at all given to any sky-daddy concept. Your experience is quite different from the AiaFH and does not apply IMHO You had options to focus your attention on you still had somethings you could control, being pinned down in a foxhole you options are just one, to stay where you are and do nothing which is perhaps one of the hardest situations for a person to be in. Fight or flight response screaming to do something, yet having nothing to do and that also could lead to death. It is that dead end, no choices left, at the end of their rope situation which causes the situation. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/71 "2011-11-14T21:43:29Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Your experience is quite different from the AiaFH and does not apply IMHO > > You had options to focus your attention on you still had somethings you could control, being pinned down in a foxhole you options are just one, to stay where you are and do nothing which is perhaps one of the hardest situations for a person to be in. Fight or flight response screaming to do something, yet having nothing to do and that also could lead to death. It is that dead end, no choices left, at the end of their rope situation which causes the situation. So what about mine? Hmm? I actually faced death several times in Iraq, not in an actual foxhole, you see, but sitting in an armored hmmwv, watching an RPG fly at me I’d call pretty close. Never once did I pray, or call out to god, or even the flying spaghetti monster. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/72 "2011-11-14T21:46:05Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Your experience is quite different from the AiaFH and does not apply IMHO _The statement “There are no atheists in foxholes” is an aphorism used to argue that in times of extreme stress or fear, such as when participating in warfare, all/i]people will believe in or hope for a higher power._ > **[There are no atheists in foxholes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes)** > > "There are no atheists in foxholes" is an aphorism used to suggest that times of extreme stress or fear can prompt belief in a higher power. In the context of actual warfare, such a sudden change in belief has been called a foxhole conversion. The logic of the argument is also used to argue for the opposite, claiming that stress and fear can cause an individual to question their belief. Critics claim the phrase is dismissive of nonreligious service members. > The statement is an aphorism used to a... > [@](#): > > You had options to focus your attention on you still had somethings you could control, being pinned down in a foxhole you options are just one, to stay where you are and do nothing which is perhaps one of the hardest situations for a person to be in. Fight or flight response screaming to do something, yet having nothing to do and that also could lead to death. It is that dead end, no choices left, at the end of their rope situation which causes the situation. It seems you don’t know what a foxhole is. Here’s another Wikipedia link for you. > **[Foxhole](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxhole)** > > Foxhole may refer to: ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/73 "2011-11-14T22:01:16Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > So what about mine? Hmm? I actually faced death several times in Iraq, not in an actual foxhole, you see, but sitting in an armored hmmwv, watching an RPG fly at me I’d call pretty close. Never once did I pray, or call out to god, or even the flying spaghetti monster. If you have things to do, options alternatives then you are depending on yourself or perhaps rescue from others. Both situations are not the ideal situation from a faith in God, to trust in what you can’t see - because there is no alternatives. In matters of faith, God sometimes will remove all other alternatives including chance of rescue. It is this at this point - total dead end, no paths left to take, that a person will commonly cry out to God and I believe is the meaning of the NAiaFH expression. **x-ray vision** it is beyond stress and fear, it is no options left that has to be reached IMHO, but thanks for the link with picts, but I didn’t see any foxes in that hole 😉 ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/74 "2011-11-14T22:07:20Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > a person will commonly cry out to God You have a cite that this is common or is it just something you take on faith? > [@](#): > > **x-ray vision** it is beyond stress and fear, it is no options left that has to be reached IMHO That may be your opinion, but it’s not backed up by what the phrase is supposed to mean nor what goes on in a foxhole. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/75 "2011-11-14T22:09:03Z")
Sounds like there’s No True Foxhole. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/76 "2011-11-14T23:03:04Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Sounds like there’s No True Foxhole. See I knew it, the give-away was there was no fox 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/77 "2011-11-14T23:05:41Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > You have a cite that this is common or is it just something you take on faith? It’s a theory based on faith. So it doesn’t matter, if it’s true regardless of any cite, it’s true. > [@](#): > > That may be your opinion, but it’s not backed up by what the phrase is supposed to mean nor what goes on in a foxhole. Yes my theory is that AinFH is derived from on what I expressed above (someone at the end of their rope), that this saying came from that though the saying is a bit off the mark. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/78 "2011-11-14T23:19:15Z")
We have many sensations in our body to help us survive in tougher times that we are not in complete control of. As in if you have a fear of heights, you generally need to do things like exposure therapy to reduce/eliminate anxiety reactions rather than being able to just tell yourself that there is a safety rail and there is no chance of falling to avoid anxiety occurring. Similarly in combat I have no problem with the idea there might be many involuntary things I might do - run away, wet myself, have a psychotic break, or appeal to a higher power to save me from it. But I dont need an actual ‘god’ to explain those reactions. If this is the best argument they have, they’re struggling in my view. Otara ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/79 "2011-11-14T23:47:49Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > It’s a theory based on faith. So it doesn’t matter, if it’s true regardless of any cite, it’s true. Something is true if it’s based on faith? Sorry, reality doesn’t work that way. > [@](#): > > Yes my theory is that AinFH is derived from on what I expressed above (someone at the end of their rope), that this saying came from that though the saying is a bit off the mark. Without evidence that the phrase is meant to express your imaginary definition of what a foxhole is, I doubt anyone here is going to find that your “theory” holds any truth value. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/80 "2011-11-15T00:36:22Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > In matters of faith, God sometimes will remove all other alternatives including chance of rescue. It is this at this point - total dead end, no paths left to take, that a person will commonly cry out to God and I believe is the meaning of the NAiaFH expression. The Church Of The Holy Extortionist is no more a valid construct than Our Father The Con Man (your deity who sends us homeopathy and other quackery so that we will be tormented by bogus remedies, rather than relying on presumably God-given talents for inventing treatments that actually work). Your concept of a God devoted to evil is entertaining, yet disturbing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808.md?page=5)