# Atheists in foxholes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808 "2011-11-13T17:46:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/81 "2011-11-15T02:45:17Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Something is true if it’s based on faith? Sorry, reality doesn’t work that way Actually that’s exactly how it works, truths are found by faith, facts are found by the methods you are referring to. facts =/= truths > [@](#): > > Without evidence that the phrase is meant to express your imaginary definition of what a foxhole is, I doubt anyone here is going to find that your “theory” holds any truth value. That is your opinion 😉 ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/82 "2011-11-15T02:49:52Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > The Church Of The Holy Extortionist is no more a valid construct than Our Father The Con Man (your deity who sends us homeopathy and other quackery so that we will be tormented by bogus remedies, rather than relying on presumably God-given talents for inventing treatments that actually work). > > Your concept of a God devoted to evil is entertaining, yet disturbing. My God is Lord Jesus, what you are in the process of doing is called crucifying the Lord - this is the exact reason that He was nailed to the cross. Calling someone devoted to Love for all mankind as evil. He accepted it willingly for you and you are already forgiven. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/83 "2011-11-15T02:56:52Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Actually that’s exactly how it works, truths are found by faith There’s one reality. Something is true or it’s not. Having faith that something is true does not make it so. It can’t, or opposing faiths would both be true and in many cases that’s not logically possible. > [@](#): > > That is your opinion 😉 Right, that’s why I said “I doubt…” It’s an opinion based on my experiences with what others on this board will find convincing. Having a theory based on faith what a phrase is supposed to mean that goes against actual evidence for how a word in that phrase is defined is going to be unconvincing for critical thinkers. But that’s _only_ my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/84 "2011-11-15T03:51:47Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > There’s one reality. Something is true or it’s not. Having faith that something is true does not make it so. It can’t, or opposing faiths would both be true and in many cases that’s not logically possible. > Right, that’s why I said “I doubt…” It’s an opinion based on my experiences with what others on this board will find convincing. Having a theory based on faith what a phrase is supposed to mean that goes against actual evidence for how a word in that phrase is defined is going to be unconvincing for critical thinkers. But that’s _only_ my opinion. Look, find me a foxhole, I will get in it, and then you will see an atheist in a foxhole. Also, if you don’t think watching an RPG fly at your truck is being in a foxhole, I would suggest that you try it, and tell me how many options you saw… ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/85 "2011-11-15T03:54:00Z")
^ You’re directing your post at me for what reason? ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/86 "2011-11-15T03:56:20Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > ^ You’re directing your post at me for what reason? Not intended. Tapatalk has issues. That’s not the post I tried to quote. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/87 "2011-11-15T03:57:48Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > If you have things to do, options alternatives then you are depending on yourself or perhaps rescue from others. Both situations are not the ideal situation from a faith in God, to trust in what you can’t see - because there is no alternatives. > > In matters of faith, God sometimes will remove all other alternatives including chance of rescue. It is this at this point - total dead end, no paths left to take, that a person will commonly cry out to God and I believe is the meaning of the NAiaFH expression. > > **x-ray vision** it is beyond stress and fear, it is no options left that has to be reached IMHO, but thanks for the link with picts, but I didn’t see any foxes in that hole 😉 This is what I tried to quote. (Hope it works!) ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/88 "2011-11-15T04:38:28Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > … > > Maybe a more accurate saying would be “there are no nihilists in foxholes”. Fucking nihilists, say what you want about the National Socialists party, at least its an ethos. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/89 "2011-11-15T05:32:49Z")
> [@ProbablyProcrastinating](#): > > I have met more atheists per person in Afghanistan than anywhere else. They pray in public but they don’t believe in god or Allah. That whole country is one big foxhole. Their choice not to see exile–and millions do–is proof of their bravery. Most of them were socialists that couldn’t stand the thought of the fundies winning after all that time. I remember their faces so well… > > The saying is bullshit. Ever read “All Quiet on the Western Front”? I’ve read the novel and I don’t remember any character being explicitly atheist. ---
**Author:** ![ProbablyProcrastinating](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/57b2e6/32.png) [@ProbablyProcrastinating](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ProbablyProcrastinating)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/90 "2011-11-15T06:09:53Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I’ve read the novel and I don’t remember any character being explicitly atheist. None of them are explicitly much of anything. It’s a very post-modern scenario in that sense. But there is a lot of doubt in authority, the church, and god throughout the novel, including in the foxholes. I think this suggests that the fact of being in a foxhole (a) does not make you a theist and (b) does not require you to pray to any god. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/91 "2011-11-15T08:05:05Z")
Relevant Cracked article: [10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On | Cracked.com](http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-and-must-agree-on.html) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/92 "2011-11-15T08:36:54Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Relevant Cracked article: [10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On | Cracked.com](http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-and-must-agree-on.html) Meh. Religion and the religious aren’t as nice or useful as he’s claiming, and atheism isn’t dependent on religious attitudes to be moral. And he falls in with the extremely insulting religious lie that equates atheism and Stalin. It’s an article that tries to create a false equivalence between the two sides; a common tactic with people trying to defend religion. ---
**Author:** ![Molesworth\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9dc877/32.png) [@Molesworth\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Molesworth_2)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/93 "2011-11-15T09:11:22Z")
I don’t really know what an “Episcopalian” is, any more than I know or care what a “Pentecostal” or “Baptist” is. Seemingly, it’s just another one of these stupid religious terms that people use an excuse for acting like pricks. Denominational religion makes about as much sense to me as being a “Purplist” when watching the Wiggles or the Teletubbies. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/94 "2011-11-15T09:15:51Z")
> [@Molesworth\_2](#): > > I don’t really know what an “Episcopalian” is, any more than I know or care what a “Pentecostal” or “Baptist” is. Seemingly, it’s just another one of these stupid religious terms that people use an excuse for acting like pricks. > > Denominational religion makes about as much sense to me as being a “Purplist” when watching the Wiggles or the Teletubbies. ! Awesome… ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/95 "2011-11-15T14:03:43Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > Look, find me a foxhole, I will get in it, and then you will see an atheist in a foxhole. > > Also, if you don’t think watching an RPG fly at your truck is being in a foxhole, I would suggest that you try it, and tell me how many options you saw… I believe the saying is derived from ‘there is a point where everyone will cry out to God’, you may not have reached that yet in your situation, you may never need to get tot that point as you may chose to believe before that, but if not you will hit that ultimate point, if it be a foxhole, hell, lake of fire, or outer darkness itself - for everyone, even the devil there is that point. The NAinFH saying attempts to bring this to our limited existence in this life, and the saying may even have been created by a person without understanding of eternal soul-life. But by doing this statement is made untrue, there are certainly atheists in foxholes and beyond. But also correct in the spiritual sense as we define the foxhole as the dead end cry out to God point. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/96 "2011-11-15T14:08:50Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > There’s one reality. Something is true or it’s not. Having faith that something is true does not make it so. It can’t, or opposing faiths would both be true and in many cases that’s not logically possible. God is not bound by your understanding of logic, and yes they all can be true even though you can’t understand it. When one holds God up to their own standards, they tend to discredit God from acting outside their standards, which causes one to fight against God, to kill God (as in Jesus) for things like healing outside the rules that the person has defined as valid. This goes more to the homeopathic reference above then the linked post. Or perhaps a easier way to understand it is that they are all on the roads back to God, people take different paths, contradictory paths, some heading north, some south, passing each other, but each one is on exactly the correct path. ---
**Author:** ![EvilTOJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/97 "2011-11-15T14:26:58Z")
I’ve almost died several times, and I think “HOLY SHIT” is the closest I ever got to praying to some sort of invisible sky fairy. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/98 "2011-11-15T15:02:53Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I believe the saying is derived from ‘there is a point where everyone will cry out to God’, you may not have reached that yet in your situation, you may never need to get tot that point as you may chose to believe before that, but if not you will hit that ultimate point, if it be a foxhole, hell, lake of fire, or outer darkness itself - for everyone, even the devil there is that point. Pure nonsense. People who genuinely don’t believe in God aren’t ever going to be “brought to that point”, no matter how bad the situation. > [@kanicbird](#): > > God is not bound by your understanding of logic, and yes they all can be true even though you can’t understand it. If God isn’t bound by logic, then there is nothing else we can say about it and everyone should just shut up on the matter. But of course, believers love to claim that God is mysterious and unknowable and beyond logic when people try to argue against them, then they turn around and go into great detail on what their god is like and what he wants. They want it both ways. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/99 "2011-11-15T15:50:16Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Actually that’s exactly how it works, truths are found by faith, facts are found by the methods you are referring to. facts =/= truths > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > There’s one reality. Something is true or it’s not. Having faith that something is true does not make it so. It can’t, or opposing faiths would both be true and in many cases that’s not logically possible. > [@kanicbird](#): > > God is not bound by your understanding of logic, and yes they all can be true even though you can’t understand it. We weren’t talking about God at all in the above exchange. You were telling me how truths are found and that facts aren’t the same as truths. Telling me about the nature of God is not a rebuttal to my rebuttal. Just telling me that two opposing statements can be true at the same time but I can’t understand why is just an empty claim. I suppose that facts do equal truths “even though you can’t understand it” also? [God vs. Logic](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY7PQEwmf2I) ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/100 "2011-11-15T16:41:27Z")
kanicbird vs. Der Trihs… _Opens popcorn_ And Czarcasm, the [Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers](http://www.militaryatheists.org/) would beg to differ with you and your ideas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808.md?page=6)