# Atheists in foxholes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808 "2011-11-13T17:46:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/101 "2011-11-15T16:49:07Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My God is Lord Jesus, what you are in the process of doing is called crucifying the Lord - this is the exact reason that He was nailed to the cross. Calling someone devoted to Love for all mankind as evil. Nope, I reject _your_ conception of the Lord as an extortionist and inflicter of quackery on mankind. If homeopathy worked, it would have removed that plank from your eye. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/102 "2011-11-15T16:49:31Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > And Czarcasm, the [Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers](http://www.militaryatheists.org/) would beg to differ with you and your ideas. I doubt that very much. Please re-read the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/103 "2011-11-15T16:56:20Z")
It’s possible the main subject of the thread has been exhausted, but we’re getting off topic here. Please take the tangents about God and logic and homepathy to new threads. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/104 "2011-11-15T17:15:04Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I believe the saying is derived from ‘there is a point where everyone will cry out to God’, you may not have reached that yet in your situation, you may never need to get tot that point as you may chose to believe before that, but if not you will hit that ultimate point, if it be a foxhole, hell, lake of fire, or outer darkness itself - for everyone, even the devil there is that point. > > The NAinFH saying attempts to bring this to our limited existence in this life, and the saying may even have been created by a person without understanding of eternal soul-life. But by doing this statement is made untrue, there are certainly atheists in foxholes and beyond. But also correct in the spiritual sense as we define the foxhole as the dead end cry out to God point. This is not only ignorant, but insulting to everybody. It’s insulting to me by assuming that my own faith is so tenuous, and insulting to Christians by implying that that faith is a measure of last resort. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/105 "2011-11-15T17:23:58Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The NAinFH saying attempts to bring this to our limited existence in this life, and the saying may even have been created by a person without understanding of eternal soul-life. But by doing this statement is made untrue, there are certainly atheists in foxholes and beyond. But also correct in the spiritual sense as we define the foxhole as the dead end cry out to God point. Your definition of “foxhole” is a cheat, does not correspond with any other definition I have _ever_ heard, and is therefore rejected for the purpose of this discussion as far as I am concerned. ---
**Author:** ![ProbablyProcrastinating](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/57b2e6/32.png) [@ProbablyProcrastinating](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ProbablyProcrastinating)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/106 "2011-11-15T19:43:59Z")
> [@Molesworth\_2](#): > > I don’t really know what an “Episcopalian” is, any more than I know or care what a “Pentecostal” or “Baptist” is. Seemingly, it’s just another one of these stupid religious terms that people use an excuse for acting like pricks. > > Denominational religion makes about as much sense to me as being a “Purplist” when watching the Wiggles or the Teletubbies. There are two kinds of denominational splits. One kind is based on the person or geography. The Church of England was created to allow one person to do a certain kind of thing forbidden by the Catholics, and Episcopalians are American Anglicans. But there is another kind of split, which is based on metaphysical differences, such as the difference between Catholics, Mormons, Baptists, and Orthodox Sabellians. While I find the first kind of denominating ridiculous, because religion is supposed to bring the truths of what is beyond our senses, into our daily lives in a useful way (and personal arguments try to do the opposite), the second makes perfect sense. It’s much more like people that argue that string theory doesn’t make sense. Barring extensive empirical evidence, we can’t say whether ST is true or not, but we can guess based on other theories about how the world works. So I would say that while the Anglican/Episcopalian split may be more like a Tinky-Winkist/Poist split (that’s purple vs. red for n00bs), others are much more academic. I was a Sabellian heretic for years, having left the Baptist church over metaphysical differences. Since come back to atheism, but the point is, you really don’t know what you are talking about with regards to denominations. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/107 "2011-11-15T20:39:25Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > To some, it proves that _really_ we all believe. It just needs someone to twist our arm to make us stop pretending otherwise… Its pretty much the same sentiment behind the phrase “we are all keynesians now” ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/108 "2011-11-15T21:00:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s just religious arrogance speaking; the deep seated attitude among many believers that atheists deep down are believers just like them, that it’s just impossible for anyone to _really_ be an atheist. Believers have difficulty grasping that there are people who genuinely consider their beliefs ridiculous, and think that we’ll suddenly reveal our true nature and grab for their skycritter under stress. They’re wrong. > > No matter the danger, I’m not going to call out to something that I consider less likely to be real than Sauron or Darth Vader. It’s not a matter of bravery; I seriously doubt it would even occur to me, because I _genuinely do not believe in gods_. Not religious arrogance I can assure you as I’m at best Agnostic and do not actually follow any recognised religion. I’m going for cultural indoctrination as the prime trigger, not for the validity of the religious belief. As to the experiences related on this thread about life threatening situations, while I respect the posters I must reflect that they didn’t have TIME for any sudden conversion to the F.S.M.. If your parachute malfunctions(speaking from experience here), or your car is heading at speed into a concrete wall, or for that matter an RPG is heading your way, your immediate reaction (especially if trained) is fast thinking how to save your life and you would have to be pretty good at multi tasking to do that AND pray. If your immediate reaction to this situation is being paralysed by fear, I doubt very much that you’re thinking about anything at all. IMO the spontaneous conversion happens in situations where you are exposed to long periods of fear caused by repeated encounters with seriously life threatening events, and which you know for sure are going to continue for at least some time in the future. Probably a good example of this would be the men in the trenches during ww1. I am NOT saying that the conversion is necessarily permament. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/109 "2011-11-15T21:13:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Your definition of “foxhole” is a cheat, does not correspond with any other definition I have _ever_ heard, and is therefore rejected for the purpose of this discussion as far as I am concerned. So you’re saying someone can not view their current life situation as being in a foxhole without them actually being in a physical foxhole? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/110 "2011-11-15T21:19:39Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > So you’re saying someone can not view their current life situation as being in a foxhole without them actually being in a physical foxhole? No. I’m saying that you don’t get to say that blue is the same as red by redefining blue. Your definition of “foxhole” does not fit anyone elses, cannot be found in any dictionary, and is rather obviously _not_ what anyone else means when they say the word. I suggest that you grab a dictionary and try to find the right word for the condition you describe-“foxhole” ain’t it. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/111 "2011-11-15T21:20:49Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > So you’re saying someone can not view their current life situation as being in a foxhole without them actually being in a physical foxhole? How did you get that from what \*\*Czarcasm \*\*wrote? You said “we define the foxhole as the dead end cry out to God point.” That’s not what a foxhole is- not even in the figurative sense. ETA: What \*\*Czarcasm \*\*said. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/112 "2011-11-15T21:42:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No. > I’m saying that you don’t get to say that blue is the same as red by redefining blue. > Your definition of “foxhole” does not fit anyone elses, cannot be found in any dictionary, and is rather obviously _not_ what anyone else means when they say the word. I suggest that you grab a dictionary and try to find the right word for the condition you describe-“foxhole” ain’t it. I believe I answered the question if we use the ‘dictionary definition’ here: > [@kanicbird](#): > > The NAinFH … > > But by doing this statement is made untrue, there are certainly atheists in foxholes and beyond. So I rejected the statement outright in it’s dictionary definition as untrue. But the OP is a faith derived definition, which is the part of my post you have objected to. I have heard things like the OP stated faith derived definition before, though not directly relating to this saying, and in a eternal sense (and as you corrctly point out) redefining the meaning of foxhole, yes this brother was telling the truth. This goes into the question about how apparent contradictions are not actual contradictions in matters of faith, but it takes God to point out how all things work together. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/113 "2011-11-15T21:46:10Z")
I have a anecdotal corollary. This last weekend kind of sucked for me. Nothing horrible, just one of those weekends where nothing goes right. Stubbed toes, spilled coffee and red lights were abound. At one point, after I dropped a beer that ended up all over my kitchen floor, I howled to the moon … “If whoever is in charge would stop fucking with me, I’d appreciate it!” Did that cancel my professional atheist standing, or did I just fall back on a cultural meme out of frustration? Extrapolate that times a million for each bullet whizzing over your head, and I think we’ve nailed down the Atheists in Foxholes dilemma. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/114 "2011-11-15T21:53:29Z")
**kanicbird** , I think you’re agreeing at this point that your interpretation of this concept is not based on the actual saying “There are no atheists in foxholes.” So you if you want to discuss your view and your interpretation, please start a new thread. It’s become a hijack in this one. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/115 "2011-11-15T21:58:04Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I believe I answered the question if we use the ‘dictionary definition’ here: Where? You didn’t post one. > [@](#): > > So I rejected the statement outright in it’s dictionary definition as untrue. Again, just declaring things isn’t a way to convince anyone of anything around here. > [@](#): > > But the OP is a faith derived definition, which is the part of my post you have objected to. Now you’re just making up terms that don’t exist. There are no “faith derived” definitions, there are just “definitions.” > [@](#): > > I have heard things like the OP stated faith derived definition before, though not directly relating to this saying, and in a eternal sense (and as you corrctly point out) redefining the meaning of foxhole, yes this brother was telling the truth. I linked to two Wikipedia articles. One regarding the phrase and another of the literal meaning of foxhole. Neither agree that what you’re claiming is the truth. > [@](#): > > This goes into the question about how apparent contradictions are not actual contradictions in matters of faith, but it takes God to point out how all things work together. Contradictions are contradictions regardless of what matters we’re speaking about. If it takes God to point something out, you shouldn’t be attempting to. ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/116 "2011-11-16T00:32:09Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Those who have been in situations that are very likely to result in their imminent death understand the saying about there being no atheists in F.H.s. > > Those who haven’t, posting from the safety of their homes/libraries etc., may well believe that when it comes to that situation they’ll be cool, true to their beliefs, and accept death with resignation, don’t. > > I think that in the unlikely event that they ever do face a likely violent death in the very near future that they may not be so stauch in their beliefs and probably won’t be as brave as they think that they will be. > > If they are then good luck to them, but I think its unlikely to say the least. I have never been in a foxhole , but three times I have been absolutely sure I was going to die in a few hours or minutes: once on a small boat that sank in a storm ten miles from land in the middle of the Molokai Channel; once when all the electrics went out in an old Aero Commander at night in November half way between Narsarsuaq and Reykjavík, and once when a Grumman AgCat completely iced over, so that I couldn’t see and none of the instruments worked. Never once did it occur to me to plead with some skydaddy for rescue (most of the time I was too busy trying to rescue myself anyway). ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/117 "2011-11-16T00:45:38Z")
Don’t try. Even being in an actual war isn’t close enough for these folks. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/118 "2011-11-16T00:53:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I just came from service at a local Episcopal church, and there was a guest speaker for Veteran’s Day services that happened to be a retired Lt. Colonel. He spoke on the phrase “There are no atheists in foxholes” and said that most people misunderstand it to mean that, under pressure on the front lines, atheists will seek out God. He preached that the real meaning was that atheists almost never make it to the front line because they lack what it takes to make sacrifices of that sort. I’ve always heard the expression originated with the journalist Ernie Pyle and that he certainly did mean what the Lt-Colonel said the expression didn’t. (Or was that Gomer Pyle? Nah, that would be too late.) You can put me down as another who think it’s a bunch of hooey. ---
**Author:** ![ProbablyProcrastinating](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/57b2e6/32.png) [@ProbablyProcrastinating](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ProbablyProcrastinating)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/119 "2011-11-16T05:59:50Z")
@x-ray, isn’t the point of using a dictionary definition that you don’t have to post it? Because you are just using the term as it is commonly used, as evidenced by the dictionary? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808/120 "2011-11-16T12:39:34Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My God is Lord Jesus, what you are in the process of doing is called crucifying the Lord - this is the exact reason that He was nailed to the cross. I thought the exact reason he was nailed to the cross was that he (a) had been put on trial for blasphemy, (b) got found guilty, and (c) was sentenced to execution, just like plenty of other folks back then who went through the same three-step process. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-in-foxholes/602808.md?page=7)