# "Atheists Sue President Trump Over His ‘Religious Liberty’ Executive Order" -- Any substance here? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 5, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951 "2017-05-05T20:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/41 "2017-05-06T17:01:14Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So, he’s clearly telling to the Treasury Secretary to continue applying the ordinary rules. So Trump put out an executive order whose purpose was to tell everyone to keep doing what they are doing? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/42 "2017-05-06T17:24:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Even more clearly, to apply those rules for a certain religious group: > . Either he is saying nothing of consequence, or he is saying that such protection should be afforded the religious in particular. > Now, why do you think this executive order was pushed so hard and cheered so heartily if the former is true, and not the latter? Because he’s trying to bullshit the religious section of his base. Not sure what you mean by “pushed so hard” but the leaked draft of this EO had the ACLU on high alert but they’ve laughed off the actual order. No one is really cheering it. The plain reading makes this look inconsequential and the ACLU agrees, so what’s your conterargument besides “smells fishy”? > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So Trump put out an executive order whose purpose was to tell everyone to keep doing what they are doing? Yes, with great flourish. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/43 "2017-05-06T17:39:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Yes, with great flourish. Again I submit there is more here. Yes the text of the EO is near worthless. But I suggest that this was a way to signal the various agencies to lay off religious institutions. There is nothing new about a president telling agencies to lay off (e.g. don’t go after marijuana users so much). If you were the head of the IRS what would you make of this EO? Do you think if tomorrow you chase down some church for electioneering you won’t be getting an angry call from the president? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/44 "2017-05-06T17:50:42Z")
It’s possible someone at the IRS could make some leap in what he’s being “signaled” but what do you imagine this “laying off” will look like? Do you expect a rash of churches endorsing candidates with impunity, despite the clear wording to follow normal procedure? One article I read mentioned that the last time a church lost tax exemption status for endorsing a candidate was decades ago. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/45 "2017-05-06T18:02:42Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It’s possible someone at the IRS could make some leap in what he’s being “signaled” but what do you imagine this “laying off” will look like? Do you expect a rash of churches endorsing candidates with impunity, despite the clear wording to follow normal procedure? One article I read mentioned that the last time a church lost tax exemption status for endorsing a candidate was decades ago. Yes, churches have been getting away with electioneering for a long time. My guess (after thinking about this more) is this is more to protect new right-wing organizations that form as a 501(c)(3). Remember the hullabaloo when the [IRS targeted some right wing groups for extra scrutiny?](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/05/irs-tea-party-scandal-congress-nonprofit-obama) This EO seems a message to the IRS to stop doing that…never mind if the scrutiny is deserved. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/46 "2017-05-06T18:02:43Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Again I submit there is more here. > > Yes the text of the EO is near worthless. > > But I suggest that this was a way to signal the various agencies to lay off religious institutions. > > There is nothing new about a president telling agencies to lay off (e.g. don’t go after marijuana users so much). > > If you were the head of the IRS what would you make of this EO? Do you think if tomorrow you chase down some church for electioneering you won’t be getting an angry call from the president? The point you may be missing is that no agency has been doing that sort of thing anyway. It’s such a rare event that this is truly a “stay the course” directive. “Keep enforcing all existing laws the way you have been [or not].” ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/47 "2017-05-06T18:08:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The point you may be missing is that no agency has been doing that sort of thing anyway. It’s such a rare event that this is truly a “stay the course” directive. “Keep enforcing all existing laws the way you have been [or not].” So why issue the executive order? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/48 "2017-05-06T18:14:42Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Because he’s trying to bullshit the religious section of his base. Not sure what you mean by “pushed so hard” but the leaked draft of this EO had the ACLU on high alert but they’ve laughed off the actual order. No one is really cheering it. No one is cheering it? [Really?](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-signs-religious-liberty-executive-order-allowing-broad-exemptions-n754786) Were all those religious leaders standing around him because they happened to taking a tour of the White House grounds at the time? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/49 "2017-05-06T18:24:15Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > So the only point of the EO was to allow Trump to show off that he can sign his name like a big boy? Indeed, that’s what the ACLU, which analyzed this EO, has said. They said it was nothing but a photo op but did not contain any actual policy implications. Maybe there is some innuendo going on, as some posters have implied, but the ACLU at least only responds to real action, and there is none here. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/50 "2017-05-06T18:29:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No one is cheering it? [Really?](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-signs-religious-liberty-executive-order-allowing-broad-exemptions-n754786) Were all those religious leaders standing around him because they happened to taking a tour of the White House grounds at the time? You’ll notice that article includes mentioning the ACLU plans to sue, a threat they’ve since withdrawn after actually reading the EO. I have to assume the cheering mentioned is also pre-reading. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/51 "2017-05-06T18:34:01Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You’ll notice that article includes mentioning the ACLU plans to sue, a threat they’ve since withdrawn after actually reading the EO. I have to assume the cheering mentioned is also pre-reading. If the president tells his agencies to lay off going after people who smoke marijuana is there a basis to sue for those who want to see all pot smokers prosecuted? My point being is something has changed but there is no legal remedy. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/52 "2017-05-06T18:38:19Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If the president tells his agencies to lay off going after people who smoke marijuana is there a basis to sue for those who want to see all pot smokers prosecuted? > > My point being is something has changed but there is no legal remedy. What has changed again? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/53 "2017-05-06T18:42:45Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If the president tells his agencies to lay off going after people who smoke marijuana is there a basis to sue for those who want to see all pot smokers prosecuted? > > My point being is something has changed but there is no legal remedy. I want a pony. Is there a basis to sue if I don’t get one? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/54 "2017-05-06T18:44:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I want a pony. Is there a basis to sue if I don’t get one? Wanting something is not the same thing as the president of the US giving something. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/55 "2017-05-06T18:46:18Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > What has changed again? Trump has signaled the IRS to lay off 501(c)(3) organizations (some, not all, just religious ones) for electioneering. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/56 "2017-05-06T18:50:52Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Trump has signaled the IRS to lay off 501(c)(3) organizations to leave certain organizations (not all) off the hook for electioneering. But they were already off the hook. Churches are still free to expound on political topics of the day and still not allowed to endorse a candidate. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/57 "2017-05-06T18:53:50Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Wanting something is not the same thing as the president of the US giving something. That’s not the point. Wanting something is the same as wanting something. > [@WaM](#): > > …is there a basis to sue for those who want to see all pot smokers prosecuted Emphasis added ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/58 "2017-05-06T18:55:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s not the point. Wanting something is the same as wanting something. > > Emphasis added Not following your point at all. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/59 "2017-05-06T18:56:39Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Not following your point at all. “Wanting” to see something happen is not the basis for a law suit. Why would it be? We all want to see lots of things that we don’t get to see. Can you cite anyone winning a lawsuit based on their desire to see something? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/60 "2017-05-06T18:57:31Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > But they were already off the hook. Churches are still free to expound on political topics of the day and still not allowed to endorse a candidate. Yes but it’s kinda like a sword of Damocles…the possibility that the thugs will swoop in holds them back, at least a bit. But if you are told to knock yourself out, do the thing to your heart’s content you are more emboldened. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951.md?page=4)