# "Atheists Sue President Trump Over His ‘Religious Liberty’ Executive Order" -- Any substance here? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 5, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951 "2017-05-05T20:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/61 "2017-05-06T18:59:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > “Wanting” to see something happen is not the basis for a law suit. Why would it be? We all want to see lots of things that we don’t get to see. Can you cite anyone winning a lawsuit based on their desire to see something? I’m pretty sure we agree on this. I said there is no legal remedy in the post this line stemmed from. Not sure what you are driving towards. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/62 "2017-05-06T19:00:09Z")
So far as I can tell, this executive order is both unconstitutional _and_ does nothing. Yes, all it actually says is “don’t go after people who aren’t doing things worth going after”, but it specifically says that only about religious organizations, not about secular organizations. That’s still a singling out of religion, even though it doesn’t do anything. That said, given that it doesn’t do anything, there are probably a lot of other policies and decisions we should spend our time and energy fighting instead, and just ignore this one. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/63 "2017-05-06T19:15:46Z")
EOs, like legislation from Congress, are assumed to be constitutional until they are found NOT to be by the SCOTUS. That is, you cannot claim immunity from adhering to it by simply saying “it’s unconstitutional”. But since it seems no one wold have standing to sue, there is no way for The Court to declare it unconstitutional\*. Therefore, it is constitutional. \*There might be some means for the court to take up the issue without a case being brought before it, but who wants to bet on that happening? I’ll give 5-1 odds to anyone who does. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/64 "2017-05-07T00:40:32Z")
If the EO is so practically and operationally insignificant that it’s a big nothingburger, ISTM that the FFRF could more effectively deploy its resources by loudly demonstrating to the Religious Right how much of an empty, manipulative pander this photo-op of an order is. Use it as an opportunity to reveal further evidence that the America-hating fuckstick currently defiling the Oval Office is just a “man behind the curtain.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/65 "2017-05-07T02:26:03Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > If the EO is so practically and operationally insignificant that it’s a big nothingburger, ISTM that the FFRF could more effectively deploy its resources by loudly demonstrating to the Religious Right how much of an empty, manipulative pander this photo-op of an order is. > > Use it as an opportunity to reveal further evidence that the America-hating fuckstick currently defiling the Oval Office is just a “man behind the curtain.” You forget something very important: Those being manipulated are quite happy to be manipulated. Occupy White House hizzelf told them flat out after he won the election that he lied to them to get their votes. Their reaction was to cheer louder. You know how when someone commits a horrible crime, people start looking for rational, sane reasons they committed the crime? There aren’t any as it was an irrational act. Same goes for supporting this dungheap. The supporters are not acting rationally. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_White\_Dope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/22d042/32.png) [@Great\_White\_Dope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_White_Dope)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/66 "2017-05-07T03:32:41Z")
Rule of Thumb: If it in any way involves atheists, chances are there’s little to no actual substance behind it. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/67 "2017-05-07T04:56:32Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Yes, churches have been getting away with electioneering for a long time. > > My guess (after thinking about this more) is this is more to protect new right-wing organizations that form as a 501(c)(3). Remember the hullabaloo when the [IRS targeted some right wing groups for extra scrutiny?](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/05/irs-tea-party-scandal-congress-nonprofit-obama) > > This EO seems a message to the IRS to stop doing that…never mind if the scrutiny is deserved. Correction: certain churches, most notably in the African-American community nigh, have been blatantly partisan for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/68 "2017-05-07T05:50:48Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You forget something very important: Those being manipulated are quite happy to be manipulated. Occupy White House hizzelf told them flat out after he won the election that he lied to them to get their votes. Their reaction was to cheer louder. > > You know how when someone commits a horrible crime, people start looking for rational, sane reasons they committed the crime? There aren’t any as it was an irrational act. Same goes for supporting this dungheap. The supporters are not acting rationally. Fair point. Might have to settle for shaming the people who were content to stand by and spectate into taking their civic responsibility seriously. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/69 "2017-05-07T12:21:02Z")
Whenever a public official acts or speaks in a way that favors ‘religious’ organizations to the exclusion of all others, it is actually a threat to everyone, including those religious organizations who, today, are favored, who, tomorrow, might see a different administration or official use that precedent to favor one other group against their group, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/70 "2017-05-07T13:09:38Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Fair point. Might have to settle for shaming the people who were content to stand by and spectate into taking their civic responsibility seriously. Sadly, that probably won’t have any effect. Owing to our peculiar electoral system, the “right” (no pun intended) distribution of supporters, as opposed to an actual majority of voters, is what it takes to get elected. Even in places where the opposition did “get out the vote”, it was essentially useless because they were outnumbered in those places. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/71 "2017-05-07T13:22:26Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Whenever a public official acts or speaks in a way that favors ‘religious’ organizations to the exclusion of all others, it is actually a threat to everyone, including those religious organizations who, today, are favored, who, tomorrow, might see a different administration or official use that precedent to favor one other group against their group, etc. True. And regardless of whatever effect the executive order under discussion has or does not have, the fact of the matter is that Occupy White House hizzelf\* trotted out a media stunt to show how much he and his so-called administration just love the religious vote and how the EO under discussion really does take back the country for them. That’s the term OWHh used (I’m likely slightly paraphrasing). If you think that’s just mindless blather, well, you can be excused given that OWHh is basically mindless and also blathers a lot. But this time he’s pulling the same stunt he did with the Muslim ban. He’s announced either what he’s done or what’s trying to do. If the Supreme Court of the United States of America does let him get away with the Muslim ban, you can bet your bottom dollar that the very next thing he pulls is all the stops on SOCAS. By my count, this is the second trial balloon he’s floated over unconstitutional nonsense he & his supporters love. \*At this point, I really don’t care what anyone things about me using this term for the amazingly incompetent fiend occupying that seat; he is not presidential at all. He’s not “presidenting”; he’s occupying. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/72 "2017-05-07T13:33:06Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Whenever a public official acts or speaks in a way that favors ‘religious’ organizations to the exclusion of all others, it is actually a threat to everyone, including those religious organizations who, today, are favored, who, tomorrow, might see a different administration or official use that precedent to favor one other group against their group, etc. By that logic, The Constitution is threat to everyone. Presidents, especially, invoke religion all the time, and I rarely, if ever, find it to be a threat to my atheist person. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/73 "2017-05-07T15:35:27Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Whenever a public official acts or speaks in a way that favors ‘religious’ organizations to the exclusion of all others, it is actually a threat to everyone . . . > [@John\_Mace](#): > > By that logic, The Constitution is threat to everyone. . . . Where does the constitution act or speak in a way that favors religious organizations to the exclusion of all others? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/74 "2017-05-07T15:49:15Z")
The Constitution only forbids Congress from making laws regarding religious organizations. The Constitution is silent on Presidential abuse of agencies. Crane ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/75 "2017-05-07T16:59:36Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Where does the constitution act or speak in a way that favors religious organizations to the exclusion of all others? The first amendment. _Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof._ Nothing about political parties, trade organizations, schools, or any other organizations. If you want to claim that it’s not there “to the exclusion of all others”, then the same can be said of this EO. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/76 "2017-05-07T17:28:09Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The Constitution only forbids Congress from making laws regarding religious organizations. The Constitution is silent on Presidential abuse of agencies. I believe the courts have extended this to administration actions. The President can’t direct the IRS to audit the returns of all the Muslims in the U.S. This was partly involved in the court rulings halting the anti-Muslim travel ban. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > The first amendment. _Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof._ Nothing about political parties, trade organizations, schools, or any other organizations. If you want to claim that it’s not there “to the exclusion of all others”, then the same can be said of this EO. Okay, at least I can see what you mean; at first read, it didn’t make any sense. Thanks. At the same time, this seems different in kind from a Presidential EO that tries to extend that clause so far as to make certain religious beliefs immune to the rest of the law. The “free exercise” of religion should not extend as far as, say, refusing to hire gays, or denying birth-control insurance coverage, but we’ve seen these happen under that excuse. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951/77 "2017-05-07T23:43:59Z")
I’m far more concerned about governments who want or force the population to be atheists than one that tells people they should be more religious. I think that not taxing churches is a form of that sort of encouragement. If I am an atheist, my taxes are being used to provide police and fire protection, etc., to religious buildings, camps, vehicles, und zo weiter. All property using government provided services should be taxed, fairly, and with due consideration to the socially positive work that might be taking place in those facilities. More to the point of the topic here, if everyone, and everyone’s property is treated equally under the law, and all laws apply equally to every individual and organization in the country, no EO is needed, because by obeying the law, the religious folks will not get sued for not doing so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-sue-president-trump-over-his-religious-liberty-executive-order-any-substance-here/785951.md?page=3)