# \[atheists/theists\] what's the best argument you've encountered against... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 14, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227 "2004-06-14T02:27:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/21 "2004-06-14T04:09:41Z")
I honestly can’t think of a “best” argument for theism when all of the arguments are bad ones. I’m baffled by Zagadka’s objection to the “there’s no proof” position of the atheists. Faith is not, in and of itself, and argument. And arguments based on faith have the very real problem that they are impossible to explain to those without faith, because they require no evidence, and hence there is no real room for debate. Really, if theists do not simply default to a dogmatic position imposed by a religious faith, they base their arguments on the “fact” that the world is simply too complex/beautiful/whatever to explain without intelligent design, and hence a deity of some sort must exist. Unfortunately, there are a number of at least plausible arguments against intelligent design that have nothing to do with personal impressions; they’re based on hard evidence, and the theories informed by this evidence can make successful predictions, some of them successful to the point of hubris. Where faith has offered up only a steady stream of tautology and denial, empiricists have enjoyed one conceptual victory after another, with no indication than _any_ question that can be asked about our universe and its origins cannot in principle be answered _without_ havint to resort to evoking a diety. Theists, if they do not demand outright belief _a priori_, claim what can be experienced is simply too wonderful to deny God. Skeptical inquiry has demonstrated this is not necessarily so. And any god worth the title ought to be necessary. So far, there isn’t a shred of evidence to support the necessity of a higher power, so, unfortunately for the theists, there isn’t a single good argument in their favor, beyond the fact their beliefs make them feel good. To the skeptic, self-affirmation is not evidence; in fact, it’s always cause for suspition, as it clouds judgement. There is no “best” among failures, I’m afraid. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/22 "2004-06-14T04:14:26Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > I am interested. I’ve just never been provided anything beyond, “there is no proof.” I’ve never had someone actually claim to be able to disprove religion scientifically. > > Please, go on. Well, it’s not really the thread for that, is it? It’s a thread for atheists and theists to give what they consider the best (or the least bad, at any rate) argument the “other side” has to offer. The topic of the existence of God, and various permutations and variations thereof, has come up, oh, once or twice before in this forum. You could start with a search. If you really like, you could start a “hit me with your best shot, atheists” thread–I’m pretty sure we’ve had some arguments between atheists and non-Abrahamic-monotheistic believers before, but it is somewhat out of the run of the more usual atheists vs. Christians debates. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/23 "2004-06-14T04:24:16Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > I honestly can’t think of a “best” argument for theism when all of the arguments are bad ones. > > I’m baffled by Zagadka’s objection to the “there’s no proof” position of the atheists. Why would there be empirical proof of the supernatural? As I said, god exists on an emotional, spiritual plane. You saying there is “no proof” for god is like saying there is no proof for love. Seriously, I almost feel bad about some atheists inability to look outside what they can see, or experience outside of what they can touch. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/24 "2004-06-14T04:30:37Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Well, it’s not really the thread for that, is it? > > … > > If you really like, you could start a “hit me with your best shot, atheists” thread. OK, I just did. Go on, make those critical thinking, mentally stable minds of your churn out all of the tons of data you have collected, **Marley23**. Until then, I stand by my point - the best I’ve heard is what I said I’ve heard - There’s no proof and all religion is evil! ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/25 "2004-06-14T04:32:30Z")
Actually, it is possible to prove there is love. Just as an example, you can image the brain of a person in love, and a person who isn’t, and see differences in metabolic activity. Human emotions are phenomena that result from the physiology and biochemistry of the neurons (and associated cells) that make up our brains, and it’s possible to describe and manipulate brain chemistry. For instance, the drug ecstacy gives people what they describe as, at times, a feeling of great love and empathy for those around them. Love isn’t “supernatural”, it’s a result of human biology. As such, there actually is proof of love. So I don’t think the God/love analogy is very effective. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/26 "2004-06-14T04:39:55Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > Actually, it is possible to prove there is love. > > Just as an example, you can image the brain of a person in love, and a person who isn’t, and see differences in metabolic activity. Human emotions are phenomena that result from the physiology and biochemistry of the neurons (and associated cells) that make up our brains, and it’s possible to describe and manipulate brain chemistry. For instance, the drug ecstacy gives people what they describe as, at times, a feeling of great love and empathy for those around them. Love isn’t “supernatural”, it’s a result of human biology. As such, there actually is proof of love. > > So I don’t think the God/love analogy is very effective. Then surely, you can do the same with a theist and an atheist? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/27 "2004-06-14T04:45:21Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Until then, I stand by my point - the best I’ve heard is what I said I’ve heard - There’s no proof and all religion is evil! Okay. How’s’about “there is no proof and a lot of evil things have been done in the name of religion”? I find religion itself to be a morally neutral concept, with good and evil (however one chooses to define them) existing only in its application. Want to build a hospital? Good. Want to burn heretics at the stake? Evil. In any case, you flatter yourself with the claim that atheists are instantly and universally hostile to you personally. Notwithstanding rare extremists like the late Madelyn O’Hair, who I suspect would have bitchslapped you on general principle, the hostility you perceive is likely a response to your own initial hostility. I see no honest attempt here to listen to anything an atheist has to say, though I thought I’d give it a shot just for kicks. > [@](#): > > I am interested. And I call “bullshit”. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/28 "2004-06-14T04:48:20Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > In any case, you flatter yourself with the claim that atheists are instantly and universally hostile to you personally. You _did_ read the thread about theist kids, right? And I call “bullshit”. [/QUOTE] Based on what, Mr. Rational Thinker? ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/29 "2004-06-14T04:48:27Z")
Atheist here. The best arguments I’ve encountered for theism are the ontological ones. They’re very intriguing. I don’t find them convincing (if I did, I would no longer be an atheist) but they are the cleverest arguments for theism that I’ve encountered. The worst arguments I’ve heard for theism are probably the arguments from ignorance. That is, someone will say, “Nobody can scientifically explain X; therefore, God must be responsible for X.” ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/30 "2004-06-14T04:52:23Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Then surely, you can do the same with a theist and an atheist? Yes. And what you would prove is that some people do experience religious emotions. However, whether or not people experience religious emotions is hardly controversial. Moreover, it has no bearing on whether or not any gods exist. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/31 "2004-06-14T04:55:16Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Until then, I stand by my point - the best I’ve heard is what I said I’ve heard - There’s no proof and all religion is evil! “There’s no proof [of God’s existence]” and “all religion is evil” are two very different statements, and you’re the only one in this thread who has equated the two. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/32 "2004-06-14T04:56:07Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > Yes. > > And what you would prove is that some people do experience religious emotions. > > However, whether or not people experience religious emotions is hardly controversial. Moreover, it has no bearing on whether or not any gods exist. THen what triggers the phsyical response? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/33 "2004-06-14T04:57:29Z")
> [@Fiver](#): > > “There’s no proof [of God’s existence]” and “all religion is evil” are two very different statements, and you’re the only one in this thread who has equated the two. Pfft. Atheists - refuse to look at the world outside their physical selves, refuse to look at the world outside the current thread. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/34 "2004-06-14T05:03:54Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Pfft. Atheists - refuse to look at the world outside their physical selves, refuse to look at the world outside the current thread. And what the heck does that even _mean?_ ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/35 "2004-06-14T05:07:12Z")
> [@Fiver](#): > > And what the heck does that even _mean?_ I started a thread last night with the premise: Neverminding that religion is true or false, it is merely a tool with which either good or evil can be done. Thus, it is not a negative thing, and can be used to accomplish much good. Which, of course, was argued against. Don’t say that they are removed and no one argued it, because they have. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/36 "2004-06-14T05:09:46Z")
Fine. But anything you can say about religion is quite apart from the question of God’s existence, and is irrelevant to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/37 "2004-06-14T05:13:13Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > You _did_ read the thread about theist kids, right? If you mean [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=260537) thread, I posted to it repeatedly, as you well know. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > And I call “bullshit”. > > Based on what, Mr. Rational Thinker? Based on my perception of your insincerity. I do not believe you are interested in giving serious consideration to any atheist viewpoint and are instead using this thread as a springboard for criticizing atheists. You’ll have to prove otherwise before I bother offering up serious “proofs” of any kind. I’ll volunteer a simple one for free, though. If a brain scan could prove the existence of “love”, a similar brain scan might be able to prove existence of belief in the existence of God. Proof of the existence of belief is not equivalent to proof of the existance of God, unless you wish to define belief as equivalent to existence. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/38 "2004-06-14T05:14:41Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > THen what triggers the phsyical response? Posted by me earlier in this thread: > [@](#): > > The worst arguments I’ve heard for theism are probably the arguments from ignorance. That is, someone will say, “Nobody can scientifically explain X; therefore, God must be responsible for X.” God of the gaps all over again. ---
**Author:** ![BornOfStardust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@BornOfStardust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BornOfStardust)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/39 "2004-06-14T05:19:01Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > The best arguments I’ve encountered for theism are the ontological ones. Like what specifically? Just curious… As for me…I’m generally inclined to be spiritual but I have bouts of skepticism/agnosticism/atheism/whathaveyou. There was an argument I heard when I was in a more skeptical mood in favor of, if not God, then at least spirituality, that intrigued me: if all we are is a bunch of chemical reactions, what point is there in, for example, being moral? There is no _meaning_ inherent in chemical reactions; therefore how can there be meaning to life? I suppose that’s a bit like the Argument from Morality, but I think it’s framed differently than in **MEBuckner** ’s post. It’s not a question of moral absolutes, theistic or otherwise, but a question of the very existence of something like morality, or meaning, in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/40 "2004-06-14T05:23:06Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > Posted by me earlier in this thread: > God of the gaps all over again. I never claimed that, now did I? You assumed I did, thanks much, but I did not. Are you going to answer my question? What triggers the response? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227.md?page=3)