# \[atheists/theists\] what's the best argument you've encountered against... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 14, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227 "2004-06-14T02:27:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Call\_me\_Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Call\_me\_Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Call_me_Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/41 "2004-06-14T05:31:33Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > 1. The intricate mathematical laws of the universe. The mathematics of the universe are extremely complex and also seem (IIRC) to be “fine tuned” for the existence of human life. Furthermore, if the entropy of the universe is running down, then it must have proceeded from a more highly ordered state. Perhaps this order points to some kind of superpowerful architect. > > cons: This doesn’t prove anything. Furthermore the existence of life supporting order in the universe may simply be the result of chance, particularly if the many worlds theory is correct. We may be simply in the position of drawing the lucky lottery ticket without being aware that there is a lottery going on. The odds seem stupendous until you think of the many Universes where life might not exist. Also even at its best this argument merely points to some cosmic superintelligence, not to the personal God of the major religions. It’s also flawed logic. We evolved on Earth, hence we are suited to live here, not vice versa. Atheist here… As for the best arguments I’ve personally heard… 1. “Where did the universe come from?” That had me stumped for a little while (The question itself, not as far as making me question my lack of faith) 2. Pascal’s wager. But like **Really Not All That Bright** , all that does is ‘prove’ it would be a good idea to believe in god, not that he/she/it exists. And **Noone Special** also further debunked it wonderfull in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4950474&postcount=182). 3. “Prove there isn’t a god.” Ok, I can’t. But the asker couldn’t prove there was a god either. I know that’s a really poor argument (for theism), but the fact remains that I can’t prove it. Hmm, I guess that’s indicative of the types of arguments I’ve had over this, if those are the 2 “best” examples I could readily think of… ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/42 "2004-06-14T05:36:01Z")
> [@Call me Frank](#): > > It’s also flawed logic. We evolved on Earth, hence we are suited to live here, not vice versa. Yeah yeah, it’s like saying, “isn’t it lucky for fish that they evolved in water, where they can breathe, and not on land?” ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/43 "2004-06-14T05:36:05Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > I never claimed that, now did I? You assumed I did, thanks much, but I did not. You just assumed that I assumed that. 😉 > [@](#): > > Are you going to answer my question? > What triggers the response? What on earth is the purpose of asking the question? Do you seriously expect me to believe that the question is both (1) on-topic and (2) not at all related to the god of the gaps? Either you are trying to argue for a god of the gaps (“since X cannot be explained by science, it must be explainable by god”), or the question is irrelevant to the thread because it doesn’t involve god whatsoever. It’s like you’re asking me, “Why did the chicken cross the road?” I don’t know; unless you’re saying that god did it, why would the question be relevant to the thread? ---
**Author:** ![BornOfStardust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@BornOfStardust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BornOfStardust)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/44 "2004-06-14T05:36:52Z")
Dude, **Zagadka** …chill, will you? You’re being obnoxious and irrational about trying to put down the atheists’ points. You won’t win people over by insulting them. Even so, I think he raises an interesting question with the “What triggers that response?” line. I’m not saying it’s _proof_, **BlackKnight** , but it’s something to think about. After all, the physical response of love is initiated in the brain in response to a certain person; perhaps it’s similar with belief and God. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/45 "2004-06-14T05:38:50Z")
> [@Lilairen](#): > > My opinion is that the best argument that either has against the other is “That isn’t in accord with my experience”; given that, I don’t understand why anyone bothers with the argument in the first place. It’s like an abstract philosophical “My boyfriend’s better” slapfight, and about as dignified. Exactly. I’ve had experiences that have convinced me. Just to myself. I feel like the dots all connect for _me_. But to try to convince someone else, based on _my_ experiences? Well, that isn’t going to prove much at all. I might share my experiences if they are interested in hearing them (but no, I’m not prepared to do that here, at least not too specifically), but I wouldn’t be shocked if they didn’t accept my experiences as “proof.” Because such experiences are often kind of a “you had to be there” kind of thing. Even if I said, “I saw God and talked to Him, face-to-face,” nobody would believe me. (Not that I’m claiming that!) Same goes the other way. I’ve never heard an atheist’s argument against faith that convinced me that what I experienced wasn’t so. Saying “There is no proof” doesn’t really cut it with a person who feels that they’ve already proven it to their own satisfaction, because on their own experiences. So what could an atheist tell someone who’d been already convinced? “You didn’t experience what you experienced” or “What you experienced wasn’t what you thought it was. I know better than you what you experienced” both sound really obnoxious and most people aren’t going to appreciate being told that. So it’s kind of like going in circles. I don’t think it usually is very effective to go on some campaign to try to agressively “convert” someone anyway. However, civil discussions about different beliefs and sharing experiences can be fine and beneficial, but too many people can’t leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/46 "2004-06-14T05:39:06Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > What on earth is the purpose of asking the question? Do you seriously expect me to believe that the question is both (1) on-topic and (2) not at all related to the god of the gaps? E-mail it to me, then. I’m not talking about god of the gaps or anything else. I’m asking you what causes the measured physiological response. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/47 "2004-06-14T05:43:24Z")
> [@BornOfStardust](#): > > Dude, **Zagadka** …chill, will you? You’re being obnoxious and irrational about trying to put down the atheists’ points. You won’t win people over by insulting them. You’ve missed out on the past few days, where I’ve been called mentally ill, incapable of critical thinking, otherwise dumb, dellusional, and stupid. I’m not trying to convince or insult anyone of anything. However, I am posting in a half dozen threads _and_ playing City of Heroes, so I might be a tad snipping because I’m busy trying not to die. :-p ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/48 "2004-06-14T05:45:11Z")
> [@yosemite](#): > > Exactly. > > I’ve had experiences that have convinced me. Just to myself. I feel like the dots all connect for _me_. But to try to convince someone else, based on _my_ experiences? Well, that isn’t going to prove much at all. That is exactly it. It is a matter of self-perception. Like I said earlier about music - a wordless melody can deeply move one person and do nothing for the next. ---
**Author:** ![BornOfStardust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@BornOfStardust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BornOfStardust)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/49 "2004-06-14T05:50:14Z")
> [@Call me Frank](#): > > It’s also flawed logic. We evolved on Earth, hence we are suited to live here, not vice versa. I agree that saying the laws of mathematics are “fine tuned for human life” is silly, but I think the bits about those laws being incredibly complex, and the entropy thing, are valid arguments. Also, excellent post just now, **yosemite**. Quite true. ---
**Author:** ![BornOfStardust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@BornOfStardust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BornOfStardust)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/50 "2004-06-14T05:55:05Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > I’m not trying to convince or insult anyone of anything. I’m sure you’re not, but you ARE coming off as smug and illogical. Just take it down a notch and we’ll all be happier. ---
**Author:** ![Call\_me\_Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Call\_me\_Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Call_me_Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/51 "2004-06-14T05:55:14Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > That is exactly it. It is a matter of self-perception. Like I said earlier about music - a wordless melody can deeply move one person and do nothing for the next. The problem with that ‘proof’ is that it isn’t reproducable. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/52 "2004-06-14T06:01:00Z")
> [@Call me Frank](#): > > The problem with that ‘proof’ is that it isn’t reproducable. Never said it was proof, and I never said that it was reproducable. I feel it, therefore I accept it. All of you can not accept it; I really don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Call\_me\_Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Call\_me\_Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Call_me_Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/53 "2004-06-14T06:08:32Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Never said it was proof, and I never said that it was reproducable. Touché. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/54 "2004-06-14T06:10:54Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > Jodie Foster: “I can’t believe in anything I don’t have proof of” (or something like that) > Matthew McConaughey: “Did you love your father?” > JF: “Yes.” > MM: “Prove it.” That is just plain stupid. She has proof of her feelings: Her feelings; she may be a hard-core, dyed-in-the-wool solipsist, and she will still have her feelings as something real that she knows exists. A supernatural entity is not her feelings and the analogy is wholly inappropriate—to the point of being ridiculous. > [@Zagadka](#): > > Ditto, I’ve never heard of a good one against theism. Usually ,“there’s no proof…” Hence, you believe in Odin, Zeus, and the Invisible Pink Unicorn. They’re all beyond “this physical world” just as much as your “god-force.” Indeed, you’ve completely scrapped god for a “force,” one which one can _feel_, by your own claim, and therefore _must_ interact with this physical world, in direct contradiction to your claim that it is beyond it. But let’s consider your claim that this “god-force” is unprovable. That means that it has no physical footprint in this universe. Physicists are on their way to determining the actual shape of the universe. They may be a way off, but they’re actually working on the mathematics and observations necessary to come to a _prima facie_, if not mathematical, proof of whether the universe is shaped like the surface of a doughnut, a saddle, or a plane, but in who knows how many dimensions. In spite of the fact that we can get to work on something so awe inspiringly subtle, it still remains that your “god-force” cannot be proven. (Apart from being able to _feel_ it, of course. Gosh, it sure would be nice if we could make an experimental test based on that!) So, you’ve abandoned god in favor of a “god-force,” and this “god-force” is wholly separated from the universe—except for how it affects your feelings. How is it that something that is beyond the physical world and is unprovable, is also so obvious and intrusive that we can feel it? How does it initiate neural-chemical reactions without violating energy conservation? And if you’ve abandoned god for a “force,” whatever that means, why bother believing at all? To the OP, there is no reason to prove atheism. As an atheist, I am merely saying that I don’t believe in the supernatural, whether one claims it is manifested through Yaweh, the influence of the signs of the zodiac, or a god-force. If you tell me that smoking causes cancer, I don’t believe it until you provide proof. It’s not up to me to provide proof of the contrary until you make a _prima facie_ case for the link between the two. Similarly, there is no reason for an atheist to have an argument _against_ theism. She may, if the situation calls for it, make an argument against alleged proof of a certain theistic claim. For example, one may claim that one’s religion is real because one feels her relationship with her god. It is reasonable to then point out that the same can be said of adherents of myriad supernatural belief systems, and if her evidence is valid, then so is theirs. (Note that she is using her feelings to prove the supernatural, not to prove her feelings.) If any of these are incompatible, then her proof is shot. It can also be pointed out that she is begging the question: Her feelings, if sincere, don’t prove something. Heck, I’m sure we can find someone who feels that O.J. didn’t do it, or that the moon landing was a hoax, or that Elvis is still alive. How is it that their feelings become evidence in favor of some external fact? One may also discredit a particular system of belief without putting forth an argument against theology in general. If one claims that her god is love, is infinitely merciful, and sends sinners to hell, then it is pretty easy to see that she has posited traits that cannot coexist. Pointing this out may be an argument against her belief system, but not against theology in general. Which argument intended to prove theology is the best? Well, none really. They’re all bullshit. Some are hypnotically idiotic, some are nonsense wrapped in science, some are just plain silly, and many are personal stories or anecdotes. But none I’ve encountered really stand out as a step closer to proving the supernatural. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/55 "2004-06-14T06:12:13Z")
Why the hell does everyone think that I can or want to prove that god exists to them? It exists to me, I’d be happy for you if you could find it, but I really don’t care. Like I said in my thread last night - even if it is a lie, it is a good lie. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/56 "2004-06-14T06:16:17Z")
> [@js\_africanus](#): > > That is just plain stupid. She has proof of her feelings: Her feelings; she may be a hard-core, dyed-in-the-wool solipsist, and she will still have her feelings as something real that she knows exists. > > Hence, you believe in Odin, Zeus, and the Invisible Pink Unicorn. They’re all beyond “this physical world” just as much as your “god-force.” As you point out above, I have my feelings. I know what they are, and I know what I experienced. Because you have not the same experiences as myself (and set out to mock them like half the other atheists here) does not bother me in the slightest. Go through your whole life not believing in anything; I don’t care. I have my own life, and it is quite enough for me. If Zeus makes me happy (I would prefer to meditate on Athena, but whatever), so be it. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/57 "2004-06-14T06:27:04Z")
> [@BornOfStardust](#): > > I’m not saying it’s _proof_, **BlackKnight** , but it’s something to think about. After all, the physical response of love is initiated in the brain in response to a certain person; perhaps it’s similar with belief and God. This entire digression was started by comparing love to religious emotions. It was stated that we know love exists because it can be examined, at least in some way. The question was then, why can’t this be done with religious emotions? It can be done - and it will prove that the emotion, just like love, exists. Let’s say my friend claims he is in love with someone called Mrs. Robinson. Being a crafty neuroscientist with time on my hands ( not really, but please play along ), I hook him up to some machines. I examine the readouts and - lo and behold - it’s true that when imagining Mrs. Robinson, the machines register that he is indeed feeling love. What does this tell me about Mrs. Robinson? _Nothing!_ Mrs. Robinson may indeed exist. There are ways of finding out. I could ask my friend for her phone number or address. In other words, I could use _some other method_ to determine whether she’s real or just a figment of his young, lusty mind. But not the method described above. That just proves that his love is real, not that the object of his love is real. Likewise, someone may feel genuine religious emotion. I don’t doubt for a minute that this happens. But what does this say about the cause of their emotion? Nothing. It’s irrelevant to the existence of the emotion. (It may, of course, be very relevant in other ways in their lives.) There is, however, a slight difference between the two cases - Mrs. Robinson, one presumes, is claimed to be physical whereas god is not claimed to be (by **Zagadka** ) physical. Now, we could say that, since there has to be _some_ cause of the religious emotion, we can label that “god”. But this doesn’t work - for one, what if the cause turns out to be physical? Then we’ve just defined a thing that is both physical and non-physical. And if it turns out that the cause is non-physical, so what? Sure, “god” has just been proven to exist. In the same way, I can define “god” to be my cat and then parade the kitty around town as proof to the townsfolk that god exists. And I’d be right, given that definition. The same holds true if we define “god” to be the emotion itself. If we do that, then obviously god exists. But this is merely “Proof by Definition”. There’s no separate entity known as god, just a familiar entity that’s been renamed. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/58 "2004-06-14T06:31:44Z")
If I had ever heard a good argument for theism, I wouldn’t be an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/59 "2004-06-14T06:33:47Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > If I had ever heard a good argument for theism, I wouldn’t be an atheist. See, this is where we all split. Saying the above is, to me, like saying, “If I had ever heard a good argument for liking that music, I would like it”… there isn’t an argument. It is perception. No one can force you into it, and neither can you try to force yourself. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227/60 "2004-06-14T06:34:50Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > E-mail it to me, then. Nah, no need - my answer is, “I don’t know”. > [@](#): > > I’m not talking about god of the gaps or anything else. I’m asking you what causes the measured physiological response. And I’m asking you why you asked that question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-theists-whats-the-best-argument-youve-encountered-against/250227.md?page=4)