# Atheists want God outlawed? (WV\_Woman, please respond) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2002, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211 "2002-06-27T12:02:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/21 "2002-06-28T00:02:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > Not an urban legend but merely wishful thinking and intentional disregard of the FF’s writings. Along with an occassional bit of fraud. I don’t recall the name offhand, but there was a Christian author a while back who manufactured quotes from Jefferson and Adams showing them to be staunch supporters of a religious state and that they themselves were devout Christians. Those quotes were printed in a book as truth, and have been often used by various fundamentalists since to “prove” that the Founding Fathers intended for the United States to be a theistic nation. The quotes have been proven false by assorted scholars, but they still live on. I’m sure someone who’s not heading out the door in a few minutes can fill in the details for me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/22 "2002-06-28T00:05:47Z")
I have encountered more than a few atheists who are actively trying to “convert” religious people. They obviously want to “free” these people from their religion, and I am guessing that their ultimate dream would be to stamp out all religion completely (through their conversion efforts). I find this terribly obnoxious, no less obnoxious than Christians being pushy with their religion, or vegetarians being pushy with their diet (I’m a Christian and a vegetarian). While these kind of atheists ultimately want all religion gone, I assume that they know that _forcing_ people to do stop worshipping is a very dangerous slipperly slope. So, I doubt they actually want religion outlawed. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/23 "2002-06-28T00:13:07Z")
There are always going to be insecure jerks trying to push their beliefs-whatever they are-on others. The key is just to smile, keep nodding…and reach for the cattle prod. ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/24 "2002-06-28T01:00:24Z")
And yet, **Guin** , although I object to people actively trying to **push** their beliefs on me, it seems incoherent that one could simultaneously believe something to be true, and yet refrain from telling others about it. That is, if one is concerned with the search for truth. Not defending idiocy and ignorance, but perhaps… the reason for this forum. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/25 "2002-06-28T01:54:58Z")
december wrote: > [@](#): > > When God is outlawed, only outlaws will have God. Gods don’t kill people, people kill … erm, nah. Never mind. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/26 "2002-06-28T02:23:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nahtanoj \* > **No one should tell any one else that what they believe is wrong.** Are you saying that it’s wrong for people to believe that it’s appropriate to tell other people that they’re wrong? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/27 "2002-06-28T02:42:13Z")
Heh. “There are some people out there who do not love their fellow man, and I **hate** people like that!” – Tom Lehrer, intro to _National Brotherhood Week_ ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/28 "2002-06-28T02:43:07Z")
Are you asking if he believes that it’s wrong for people to believe that it’s appropriate to tell other people that what they believe is wrong? ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/29 "2002-06-28T02:57:03Z")
Well, if you’d like to pass me a free copy of an athiest tract, I won’t complain. Why not? Heck, I’ll take 3 of them Spinozas! (Yes, I’m Mormon.) ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/30 "2002-06-28T03:10:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*I figured that. > Some churches I’ve been in believed the missing day theory, gold dust falling on people, etc. > Personally, I keep my politics seperate from my religion, mainly because my politics are far to the left of all chrsitians I have known IRL. \*\* Missing day? Gold dust? Gold dust I don’t know from. But “missing day”? That brings to mind the early Heinlein story, “Goldfish Bowl”. I suppose this is something completely different… Pleae tell us about these concepts. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/31 "2002-06-28T03:27:54Z")
> [@](#): > > But “missing day”? There are a number of people who believe that the account of the sun standing still in the sky recounted in Joshua 10:12-13 has been proven true by NASA scientists or astronomers or whoever. [Snopes has an article on it.](http://www.snopes.com/religion/lostday.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/32 "2002-06-28T03:53:43Z")
I have to say that I think that threads that name a poster in the title, and that are specifically started just to quibble with one specific statement that that poster has made, rather than to debate a general topic, ought to be put in the Pit. Either that, or else just send her an e-mail. This– > [@](#): > > WV\_Woman and others who share the quoted belief, why do you feel that I (as an atheist) wish to have your religion outlawed? In what way are our differing beliefs a threat the Church? –IMO isn’t a topic for a Great Debate. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/33 "2002-06-28T04:15:29Z")
I disagree, **DDG**. I think this–and **Maeglin’s** **december** GD thread are perfectly appropriate. The debate is better focused by defining the scope of the inquiry beforehand; if **WV\_Woman** doesn’t feel comfortable responding, then she needn’t, but I think the OP is pretty respectful of her point of view and is merely seeking to examine it more fully–hold it up to the light, as it were. There’s no Pitting going on here whatsoever. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/34 "2002-06-28T07:59:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hazel \* > \*\*Gold dust I don’t know from. > > Pleae tell us about these concepts. \*\* There was a phenomenon in some charasmaticaly inclined churches a while back where people would find themselves covered in what appeared to be fine gold dust when praying or worshiping - some even claimed that they had been given a gold tooth/crown by God. These manefestations were seen by those who believed as a sign of God’s blessing. Some of the claims were disproved, and as far as I know the “movement” has stopped. Here is a fairly [balanced article](http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/d04.html) on the topic. Many in the more conservative wings of the Church utterly rejected these claims from the word go, calling them [false teaching](http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/nextgnostic.htm) and [worse](http://www.banner.org.uk/tb/gold.html)… Grim ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/35 "2002-06-28T08:14:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Podkayne \* > \*\ ***Mangetout** , your interpretation of the term “hard” atheist don’t jibe with my understanding of the term. As I understand it, > soft atheists think that there is no good evidence for the existence of god, whereas hard atheist feel that god’s existence has been satisfactorily disproved by logical (or, depending on the person, not-so-logical) argument. > > I do not think that the terms hard or soft atheism necessarily imply the atheist’s attiude toward theism. I do not believe that a “hard” atheist is “hard” in some emotional or political sense of being intolerant or radical. > > “Antitheist,” on the other hand, is a fine term. :)\*\* Hence my hasty addendum, although I think I probably still should never have used the term ‘hard atheist’ - I did so merely because I seem to recall that’s how the people in question happened to describe themselves, but I certainly did not mean to imply that there was any inherent agenda to stamp out religion in hard atheism. > [@](#): > > **In regards to the OP, I have never met an atheist who argued that the government should stamp out religion.** No, in fact IIRC, the people I have heard advocating the eilimination of religion (and we’ve had at least one or two here on the boards, but they don’t tend to last long) typically have scant idea how their master plan would actually be implemented. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/36 "2002-06-28T08:23:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nahtanoj \* > **Living in the States, I feel that I am almost beseiged by the religious establishment. Various groups rent the giant streets signs for religious messages, Gideon members stake out universities once a year to hand out copies of the new testament, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Baptists and others go door-to-door trying to convert people, etc. I wonder how people would feel if free copies of Spinoza or Nietzsche were given away to all who passed on the street, or if people went door-to-door attempting to convince people of the non-existence of their god(s)?** I don’t think there’s anything other than motivation (and the possibility of an angry, but illegal lynchmob 😉 ) stopping you from doing that, but what exactly would be the point? \*\*nahtanoj:\*\*Good morning madam, we’ve dropped by to tell you the good news that God doesn’t exist… \*\*Housewife:\*\*Really?, I thought that he did \*\*nahtanoj:\*\*Mmm, well it turns out you were wrong, see (hands over some literature) \*\*Housewife:\*\*Well, I must say this is most surprising \*\*nahtanoj:\*\*Indeed \*\*Housewife:\*\*So, if I believe this, what will happen to me when I die? \*\*nahtanoj:\*\*Nothing \*\*Housewife:\*\*And if I don’t believe it? \*\*nahtanoj:\*\*Nothing … ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/37 "2002-06-28T09:28:31Z")
Freedom of speech also means that a person can stay silent if he wants to. Freedom of the press means that the newspapers can refrain from printing a story if they want to. Right to assemble means that people can stay at home if they want to. Right to bear arms means that people can remain unarmed if they want to. Right to fair and speedy trial means that a person can still plead “guilty” if he wants to. Likewise… Freedom of religion means that a person can have no religion if he wants to. (This post brought to you by Pretentious Statements of the Painfully Obvious, Inc.) ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/38 "2002-06-28T11:55:05Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by yosemitebabe_ > \*\*I have encountered more than a few atheists who are actively trying to “convert” religious people. They obviously want to “free” these people from their religion, and I am guessing that their ultimate dream would be to stamp out all religion completely (through their conversion efforts). I find this terribly obnoxious, no less obnoxious than Christians being pushy with their religion, or vegetarians being pushy with their diet (I’m a Christian and a vegetarian). > > While these kind of atheists ultimately want all religion gone, I assume that they know that forcing people to do stop worshipping is a very dangerous slipperly slope. So, I doubt they actually want religion outlawed.\*\* I think the same thought process is going on in the evangelical atheist as in the evangelical Christian. “I know better than this poor slob and, rather than let him continue down the dark path, will provide him enlightenment. I’ll beat it into him, if necessary!” > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Lissla Lissar_ > \*\*And yet, Guin, although I object to people actively trying to push their beliefs on me, it seems incoherent that one could simultaneously believe something to be true, and yet refrain from telling others about it. That is, if one is concerned with the search for truth. > > Not defending idiocy and ignorance, but perhaps… the reason for this forum.\*\* But there are more **polite** ways of discussing what I believe to be true than attempting to force it down some one elses throat, by threat of hell-fire or by legislation or what have you. That’s the beauty of rational debate (which sometimes occurs right here ;)), it allows us a polite way of disagreeing about what we believe to be true. Thus, we can state what we believe to be true and discuss why hold a set of beliefs ‘A’, and can not subscribe to another set of beliefs ‘B’. You (the proverbial ‘you’, of course) might introduce me to something I’ve never heard before, or provide a new perspective on belief set ‘B’. The problem arises when you (TPY,OC) are unable to convince me by reason and are still convinced you’re right. Thus, you seek other means of forcing me to conform with belief set ‘B’. This is the point where sharing your beliefs becomes pushing your beliefs on me, and unacceptable. I think that’s the point where you’d reach for **Guins** cattle prod. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose_ > **This…IMO isn’t a topic for a Great Debate.** We’ve seen it argued that christians are trying to enforce Christianity in some of the debates here. It appears that there is at least one Christian (and possibly more) who feel the reverse is also true - that there is an atheist movement attempting to force Christians to abandon their faith. I’d never seen this facet of the Theist/Atheist debate here. I thought it worthy of exploring with everyone, first to see if it is a commonly held belief (which so far it doesn’t appear to be) and second to ‘hold it up to the light’ as **Gadarene** said. Call it my personal attempt to root out and fight a little ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/39 "2002-06-28T12:15:43Z")
And I managed to forget to respond to **dreamer** > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > \*\*I wouldn’t say your beliefs are a threat, it’s more like (IMO) some people get tired of hearing what Christian’s have to say and it may come to a point where they get so sick of hearing about Jesus and the bible and being witnessed too etc, that some people would do whatever they could to stop hearing about it. I don’t want to hijack this thread and change it into bible prophecy or anything, but _some_ Christians believe the One World Government is coming and will form its own One World Religion and Christianity will be the first to go. > \*\* Is it a matter of prophecy then? If so, surely there should be a fair amount of evidence within current events indicating a movement to be rid of Christianity entirely. My point is that there’s no movement who’s political platform is “Tired of hearing about Jesus and the bible and being witnessed to? Join us, and help us elect officials who want to stamp out religion!” ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/40 "2002-06-28T14:23:24Z")
**Mangetout** , gotcha. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > I have to say that I think that threads that name a poster in the title, and that are specifically started just to quibble with one specific statement that that poster has made, rather than to debate a general topic, ought to be put in the Pit. Taking it to the Pit just invites a disorderly pile-on which would make **WV\_Woman** defensive (and rightfully so!) so that it would be harder to discuss her position rationally. Including her name in the title seems fair, as might catch her attention and increase the likelyhood of her commenting on the thread . . . though it hasn’t worked so far. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211.md?page=3)