# Atheists want God outlawed? (WV\_Woman, please respond) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2002, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211 "2002-06-27T12:02:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![nahtanoj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@nahtanoj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nahtanoj)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/41 "2002-06-28T14:28:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Are you saying that it’s wrong for people to believe that it’s appropriate to tell other people that they’re wrong? Nope, just that they can’t act on that belief. 😃 Mangetout: Loved your piece. I am tempted to try just to see the reaction I would get. nahtanoj ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/42 "2002-06-28T14:47:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beelzebubba \* > \*\*And I managed to forget to respond to **dreamer** > > Is it a matter of prophecy then? If so, surely there should be a fair amount of evidence within current events indicating a movement to be rid of Christianity entirely. \*\* And there is a small amount of that evidence right now. It may not be going straight for the gut of “getting rid of Christianity” but things certainly have been done to rid God from the public systems (schools, courtrooms etc). And now the Pledge of Allegiance and the talk of IGWT on currency in [this](http://http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=122693) thread. > [@](#): > > \*\*My point is that there’s no movement who’s political platform is “Tired of hearing about Jesus and the bible and being witnessed to? Join us, and help us elect officials who want to stamp out religion!” \*\* Well I’m sure they are not going to stand outside some church and say that but there are people who feel that way, and all it takes is a few to get a movement going and change laws and create new ones. My point being that these small things _will_ lead to bigger issues and as our moral world continues to decline it will become more and more obvious that as **WV\_Woman** stated **"The atheists will not be happy until even the simple mention of God is illegal … even in the privacy of your own home."** ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/43 "2002-06-28T15:03:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > **And there is a small amount of that evidence right now. It may not be going straight for the gut of “getting rid of Christianity” but things certainly have been done to rid God from the public systems (schools, courtrooms etc). And now the Pledge of Allegiance and the talk of IGWT on currency in [this](http://http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=122693) thread.** This is a tangent already being dealt with in other threads, I’d rather stay focused on the idea of outlawing Christianity rather than the removal of Christian slogans from government oaths and documents, unless you’re claiming the ‘slippery slope’ argument. > [@](#): > > **Well I’m sure they are not going to stand outside some church and say that but there are people who feel that way, and all it takes is a few to get a movement going and change laws and create new ones.** And the question remains: Who are these people? Have you met any? Have you even heard of any? What laws are being proposed that threaten Christianity and who is proposing them? Or are they the unnamed “They”? I have not met any, and I know of know atheist organization that favors the outright banning of any religion. ---
**Author:** ![nahtanoj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@nahtanoj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nahtanoj)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/44 "2002-06-28T15:12:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beelzebubba \* > And the question remains: Who are these people? Have you met any? Have you even heard of any? What laws are being proposed that threaten Christianity and who is proposing them? Or are they the unnamed “They”? I have not met any, and I know of know atheist organization that favors the outright banning of any religion. The closest I can think of would be the Chinese Communists, but I don’t think we are headed in that direction. We are moving in more of a 1933 Germany kind of direction. nahtanoj ---
**Author:** ![nahtanoj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@nahtanoj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nahtanoj)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/45 "2002-06-28T15:12:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beelzebubba \* > And the question remains: Who are these people? Have you met any? Have you even heard of any? What laws are being proposed that threaten Christianity and who is proposing them? Or are they the unnamed “They”? I have not met any, and I know of know atheist organization that favors the outright banning of any religion. The closest I can think of would be the Chinese Communists, but I don’t think we are headed in that direction. We are moving in more of a 1933 Germany kind of direction. nahtanoj ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/46 "2002-06-28T15:15:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beelzebubba \* > \*\* > > And the question remains: Who are these people? Have you met any? \*\* Yes, in fact I have and a few are close friends of mine who have no problem saying they would like a world “religion free”. I can’t understand why you have such a hard time believing there are people who feel this way. ---
**Author:** ![Baron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9de0a6/32.png) [@Baron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/47 "2002-06-28T15:23:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > \*\* > > And there is a small amount of that evidence right now. It may not be going straight for the gut of “getting rid of Christianity” but things certainly have been done to rid God from the public systems (schools, courtrooms etc). … > \*\* As public (government-run) institutions, schools, courts and other gov’t facilities are under obligation to adopt no official religion if they are to adhere to the spirit and letter of the law. Few people want christianity outlawed, but many of us are tired of having it rammed down our throats. \*\* > [@](#): > > Well I’m sure they are not going to stand outside some church and say that but there are people who feel that way, and all it takes is a few to get a movement going and change laws and create new ones. My point being that these small things _will_ lead to bigger issues and as our moral world continues to decline it will become more and more obvious that as **WV\_Woman** stated **“The atheists will not be happy until even the simple mention of God is illegal … even in the privacy of your own home.”** \*\* Sliding down a pretty[slippery slope](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html) there, arent we? No one is proposing anything that would affect what you do in your home. No one is telling your children that they must reject christianity, or embrace atheism. The decision is intended to try to undo a law that added religious content to our PoA that was not originally there, a la the changes to the commandments in [Animal Farm](http://www.ddc.net/ygg/etext/animal.htm). Eisenhower’s decision to add this phrase was intended to [unite the country in christianity](http://www.cnn.com/interactive/us/0206/timeline.pledge.allegiance/content.5.html). While I’m sure he meant well, his decision made it harder for atheists (and all other non-christians) to be accepted as part of this country. ---
**Author:** ![Baron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9de0a6/32.png) [@Baron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/48 "2002-06-28T15:30:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > \*\* > > Yes, in fact I have and a few are close friends of mine who have no problem saying they would like a world “religion free”. I can’t understand why you have such a hard time believing there are people who feel this way. \*\* You’re going to have to back yourself up better than that. First of all, using “friends” as a reference is pretty weak. I can say I know “christian friends” who think all Jews have horns and atheists are devil worshippers who must be killed, but that doesn’t make for a particularly strong argument, does it? Yo’ure going to have to prove that someone who knows what they’re talking about said something. ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/49 "2002-06-28T15:38:34Z")
> [@](#): > > But there are more polite ways of discussing what I believe to be true than attempting to force it down some one elses throat, by threat of hell-fire or by legislation or what have you. That’s the beauty of rational debate (which sometimes occurs right here ), it allows us a polite way of disagreeing about what we believe to be true. Thus, we can state what we believe to be true and discuss why hold a set of beliefs ‘A’, and can not subscribe to another set of beliefs ‘B’. You (the proverbial ‘you’, of course) might introduce me to something I’ve never heard before, or provide a new perspective on belief set ‘B’. Yes. I was just trying to draw a probably unhelpful and obvious distinction between obnoxious behaviour and polite debate. Sigh. i realised as soon as I posted it that it could be taken the wrong way. > [@](#): > > (This post brought to you by Pretentious Statements of the Painfully Obvious, Inc.) **SPOOFE** , that’s a great line! ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/50 "2002-06-28T15:38:47Z")
> [@](#): > > But there are more polite ways of discussing what I believe to be true than attempting to force it down some one elses throat, by threat of hell-fire or by legislation or what have you. That’s the beauty of rational debate (which sometimes occurs right here ), it allows us a polite way of disagreeing about what we believe to be true. Thus, we can state what we believe to be true and discuss why hold a set of beliefs ‘A’, and can not subscribe to another set of beliefs ‘B’. You (the proverbial ‘you’, of course) might introduce me to something I’ve never heard before, or provide a new perspective on belief set ‘B’. Yes. I was just trying to draw a probably unhelpful and obvious distinction between obnoxious behaviour and polite debate. Sigh. i realised as soon as I posted it that it could be taken the wrong way, and was dumb. > [@](#): > > (This post brought to you by Pretentious Statements of the Painfully Obvious, Inc.) **SPOOFE** , that’s a great line! ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/51 "2002-06-28T15:39:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*I’d been told in some of the fundie churches I’ve gone to, that the term “separation of church and state” was **not** intended at all by the writers. > UL? \*\* You can find writings of the Founding Fathers and the framers of the Constitution on matters of religion [here](http://www.positiveatheism.org/index.shtml). Of particular note would be the views of [Thomas Jefferson](http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/jefframe.htm) (drafter of the Declaration of Independence) and his protege [James Madison](http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/madframe.htm), the “Father of the Constitution.” Both of these men adamantly and in plain language endorsed the notion of a “wall of separation” between church and state. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Maximino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@Mighty\_Maximino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Maximino)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/52 "2002-06-28T15:39:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > \*\* > > Yes, in fact I have and a few are close friends of mine who have no problem saying they would like a world “religion free”. I can’t understand why you have such a hard time believing there are people who feel this way. \*\* And there are Christian reconstructionists who think that anyone publically professing belief in another religion should be stoned to death with stones. I can find you a “few people” who believe anything you care to name. If you’d like us to buy into your paranoia, then feel free to explain why the Senate passed a resolution 99-0 in favor of keeping ONUG in the Pledge, and then maybe make a list of powerful atheist politicians in the US who speak to the powerful atheist lobby to prevent people from worshipping in the Christian religion. People have said it all over in this thread – most atheists don’t care what you do at home, in church, or even at school by yourself or with like-minded people. But try to compel **me** to pray by bringing state power onto my head, and I’ll fight screaming the whole way. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/53 "2002-06-28T15:41:31Z")
Wanting a world that is “religion free,” and actively supporting laws and changes that would make religious practice illegal, are two very, **very** different things. I would also prefer a world in which religion did not exist, but I don’t support laws that would make it so. ---
**Author:** ![Baron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9de0a6/32.png) [@Baron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/54 "2002-06-28T15:51:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mighty Maximino \* > \*\*And there are Christian reconstructionists who think that anyone publically professing belief in another religion should be stoned to death with stones. I can find you a “few people” who believe anything you care to name. If you’d like us to buy into your paranoia, then feel free to explain why the Senate passed a resolution 99-0 in favor of keeping ONUG in the Pledge, and then maybe make a list of powerful atheist politicians in the US who speak to the powerful atheist lobby to prevent people from worshipping in the Christian religion. People have said it all over in this thread – most atheists don’t care what you do at home, in church, or even at school by yourself or with like-minded people. But try to compel **me** to pray by bringing state power onto my head, and I’ll fight screaming the whole way. \*\* Good point, **Maximino**. Also, how many presidents have we had that werent _Protestant_? One, to my knowledge, and that was Kennedy. He was Catholic. Any Atheist congressmen out there? Doubtful, as far as I can see. Googles for “atheist senator”, “atheist congressman” and “atheist representative” come up with mostly anti-atheist news. ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/55 "2002-06-28T16:27:31Z")
[QUOTE] _Originally posted by dreamer_ \*\*Yes, in fact I have and a few are close friends of mine who have no problem saying they would like a world “religion free”. I can’t understand why you have such a hard time believing there are people who feel this way. \*\* I understand how they feel. I want to know what organizations they belong to which support outlawing christianity. If none, what steps have they taken individually to outlaw christianity. And, of course, by outlaw I mean to the extent quoted in the OP - that any mention of God will be illegal. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/56 "2002-06-28T16:41:18Z")
nahtanoj wrote: > [@](#): > > We are moving in more of a 1933 Germany kind of direction. Incoming Godwin’s Law! Hit the dirt!! ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/57 "2002-06-28T17:01:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > \*\*Wanting a world that is “religion free,” and actively supporting laws and changes that would make religious practice illegal, are two very, **very** different things. I would also prefer a world in which religion did not exist, but I don’t support laws that would make it so. \*\* So if there was a ballot going around with the idea to make religious practice illegal, you would not vote for it? I admit, the idea of banning religion _completely_ is far fetched, but I do believe we are heading towards a time where the choice of which religion you’d like to practice will be limited. I have no “cite” or “proof”, just my opinion, but it happens in other parts of the world which leads me to believe it _could_ happen in the future of America. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/58 "2002-06-28T17:06:02Z")
> [@](#): > > So if there was a ballot going around with the idea to make religious practice illegal, you would not vote for it? That is correct–I would not vote for it. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/59 "2002-06-28T17:13:50Z")
dreamer, I take it you are fairly religious? And yet you have friends who want to pass laws that would make it a crime for you to practice your religion? Free advice, get new friends. Maybe some other religious people? Maybe some atheists who aren’t fruitcakes? Hopefully what you meant was something like “I was at this party and this guy was there and he said we should throw all the Christians to the lions. And there was no God. And he was changing his name to Spinoza. And from that I’m willing to say that there are people out there who want to criminalize religion.” You’d be right. Every group of people is burdened with their share of nutbars. Let me assure you, they are nutbars. And in general, atheists are really a pretty moderate group of people - as long as you don’t tell my three year old he and his Mommy are going to hell. In fact, I’d prefer if people left his religious education to me and those I choose (the UU RE program is excellent). The hubby is the atheist in this household (I’m a Unitarian Agnostic), but I am certain, anyone passing petitions that we should criminalize religion would get written off as a loon. We may not be a household of faith, but we are a household of basic civil and human rights. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/60 "2002-06-28T17:18:48Z")
Oh, just saw your last post. We of little and no faith also see a potential time where your choices on what religion you may practice is limited. We tend to think the first step might be that we’d have to pick one. Then maybe pick a Christian one. Then maybe pick a not Catholic Christian one. Then maybe pick…well, you get the idea. We are really on the same side. I really can’t imagine the government telling me what I believe - or don’t believe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211.md?page=4)