# Atheists want God outlawed? (WV\_Woman, please respond) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2002, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211 "2002-06-27T12:02:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/121 "2002-06-30T00:45:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kevlaw \* > \*\*On the grounds that an atheist has (so far) successfully challenged the right to recite a patriotic pledge. \*\* On those grounds, I would argue that religious people can’t be patriotic. After all, it was one of them who **changed** the pledge, turning it from a patriotic and unifying thing into a divisive statement placing God (not just any god either, their W.A.S.P. God) _above_ the country. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/122 "2002-06-30T00:45:38Z")
> [@](#): > > On the grounds that an atheist has (so far) successfully challenged the right to recite a patriotic pledge. A challenge (in a different form) first issued by a believer in Jesus. I’m sorry, but you believe that the imposition by the government of the recitation of a pledge of allegiance, as if this was some totalitarian state that needed to remind its members to be faithful to the government, is a good thing? > [@](#): > > given that historical precedence shows that most atheist governments have persecuted religion Excuse me? We are discussing atheist individuals, not atheist governments. A government that, for philosophical reasons _imposes_ atheism on all of its citizens is more like a theocracy–such as Robertson, Wildmon, and Falwell pray for each night. There is, for the reasons I outlined above, no reason to believe that an atheist individual will ever _impose_ atheism on a pluralistic society–a society whose pluralism is currently threatened by the imposition of Christian slogans on non-religious domains. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/123 "2002-06-30T02:43:11Z")
**DesertGeezer** > [@](#): > > As for atheists not being patriotic, you can shove you head up G.H.W. Bush’s ass, since you obviously see America through his eyes anyway. Fucking moron! […] kevlaw, you ARE a fucking moron…GOODBYE! [Moderator Hat ON] DesertGeezer, direct personal insults are NOT approriate in this forum. Quit it or Pit it. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![QueenAl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/d26b3c/32.png) [@QueenAl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QueenAl)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/124 "2002-06-30T03:43:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kevlaw \* > \*\* > The UK came very close in 1992 with Neil Kinnock. That would have put an atheist in charge of selecting the spiritual leader of the Church of England. Wonder who he would have chosen ? > \*\* 1. Neil Kinnock was not an atheist. 2. He was not elected to power. 3. If he had been elected to power, he would never have been in the position of selecting the head of the Church of England, because the head of the Church of England is the Queen. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/125 "2002-06-30T05:49:25Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. Neil Kinnock was not an atheist. He’s not ? Do you have cite ? > [@](#): > > 1. He was not elected to power. I know… hence came very close. > [@](#): > > the head of the Church of England is the Queen I was very careful to say “spirititual leader”. The spiritual leader is the Archbishop of Canterbury. Who is _technically_ selected by the Queen, but is actually selected by the prime minister from a shortlist provided by the Synod. Did I cover everything ? ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/126 "2002-06-30T05:59:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Wrong. Absolutely, completely, wholly and entirely wrong I meant to say “On the grounds that an atheist has (so far) successfully challenged the right to recite a patriotic pledge [in a public school].” So I was sloppy. But not absolutely, completely, wholly and entirely wrong, I think. I took my lead from the New York Times which said … > [@](#): > > the Ninth Circuit ruled that the pledge, as it exists in federal law, could not be recited in schools because it violates the First Amendment’s prohibition against a state endorsement of religion. If they got it wrong, then maybe you’ll forgive me for getting it wrong too. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/127 "2002-06-30T06:06:10Z")
> [@](#): > > There is, for the reasons I outlined above, no reason to believe that an atheist individual will ever impose atheism on a pluralistic society Who is talking about individuals in a pluralistic society? I thought we were debating whether it was reasonable for a god-fearing patriotic american to believe that atheists might want to ban religion. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/128 "2002-06-30T06:43:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by F. U. Shakespeare \* > I have for years proposed the following experiment (and I’ve never been taken up on it): > > I walk around with a sign saying “Come to God”, “Jesus is Lord”, etc. > > YOU walk around with a sign saying “There is no God”, “Jesus is Lard”, etc. > > (Some ground-leveling would be in order: we have to act equally politely, and be dressed about the same). > > First person punched in the mouth loses. HAH! 😃 Have to remember that the next time I get into one of those “Us poor Christians are being persecuted” discussions. And, in a related vein, check out [“Life In Our Anti-Christian America.”](http://www.infidels.org/misc/humor/lioaca.html) ---
**Author:** ![Fugazi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f08c70/32.png) [@Fugazi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fugazi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/129 "2002-06-30T07:11:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kevlaw \* > \*\* > > a) atheists are not patriotic and > > \*\* I think you should retract this and apologize. I spent 14 years in the Air Force defending this country and I consider myself very patriotic. Also you said this: > [@](#): > > I meant to say “On the grounds that an atheist has (so far) successfully challenged the right to recite a patriotic pledge [in a public school].” The reason an atheist is challenging this pledge is because you and your ilk had to go and add God to it. Atheists, and I suppose folks of other religions, would love to recite patriotic pledges that doesn’t have YOUR god in it. ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/130 "2002-06-30T07:12:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gaudere \* > \*\ ***DesertGeezer** > [Moderator Hat ON] > DesertGeezer, direct personal insults are NOT approriate in this forum. Quit it or Pit it. > [Moderator Hat OFF] \*\* I apologize, **Gaudere** , for some reason I thought I was in the Pit (been spending so much time there). So I apologize to **kevlaw** specifically for name-calling in GD, even though he resolutely refuses to see reason (presented much better by **Tom** than by me. I’ll just lurk until this thread plays itself out and hope to catch him in the Pit at a later date. Again, sorry for breaking the rules. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/131 "2002-06-30T08:02:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Who is talking about individuals in a pluralistic society? I thought we were debating whether it was reasonable for a god-fearing patriotic american to believe that atheists might want to ban religion. Well, by specifying “American” we have set some parameters to keep this discussion in the real world, rather than in all of the possible imaginable worlds. The U.S. is a pluralistic society (the efforts of Robertson and Falwell notwithstanding). Within this real world, self-identified religious people make up well over 90% of the population (with Christians, specifically, making up the overwhelming majority of that group). So, while it may be possible that some number of individual athiests may or may not actually wish to ban religion (as opposed to the demonstrated numbers of purported Christians who have already claimed that they wanted to ban athiests), the idea that “athiests” as some not-well-identified and not-well-represented group wish to ban religion is laughable. Certainly “Athiesm” as some sort of perceived group has _never_ called for the banishment of religion in this country and there is no reason to believe that they would. The distinctions are: - There is one specific political movement in the world (one which had a brief run in history and is now dying off) that called for the destruction of religion. It lasted fewer than 100 years. - In the 200 years preceding that movement, since the first public musings of atheists had been published without having a (church-backed) government forcibly silence them, there have been several such philosophers who expressed the thought that the world would be better off without religion. Only one of them actually laid the groundwork for a call to destroy religion–and even Marx did not call for religion to be banned: he expected it to shrivel up and blow away as a result of the dialectic. It was the people who built a political movement on his writings who imposed bans on religion. So, we have evidence that atheists _have not_ called for the destruction of religion in the political arena outside one failed movement. (On the opposite side of the fence, we _have_ had any number of self-identified religious people who have called for the exile, banishment, public humiliation, castigation, and, occasionally, punishment of atheists.) Therefore, it appears that the only reason that a religious person in the U.S. would believe that an atheist might wish to call for the destruction of religion is that that is the sort of thing that a religious person would do. I believe that is known as projection, and it is not a very sound principle upon which to base one’s fears–much less one’s laws. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/132 "2002-06-30T08:17:27Z")
> [@](#): > > I meant to say “On the grounds that an atheist has (so far) successfully challenged the right to recite a patriotic pledge [in a public school].” > > So I was sloppy. But not absolutely, completely, wholly and entirely wrong, I think. > > I took my lead from the New York Times which said … > > > [@](#): > > > > the Ninth Circuit ruled that the pledge, as it exists in federal law, could not be recited in schools because it violates the First Amendment’s prohibition against a state endorsement of religion. But, you see, you still got it wrong–and you were not paying attention to the NY Times which did _not_ get it wrong. The Times noted that the pledge “as it exists in federal law” could not be recited. The lawsuit that was brought did not object to the Pledge of Allegiance; it objected to the wholly politically motivated insertion of the phrase “under God.” There are those who object to being called upon to recite the pledge as an offical act in school. However, the God-fearing student who made that objection was already supported by the Supreme Court during the height of World War II, when the Court ruled that a student could not be compelled to recite the Pledge (which, at that time, did not have the “under God” phrase jammed into it). This lawsuit objected to a student who did not believe in a god being compelled to witness her classmates each morning as they recited the Pledge while claiming that the country was “under” a god that she did not believe in. If you did not discern that aspect of the story in the Times, then you were not paying attention to the particulars of the case. ---
**Author:** ![QueenAl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/d26b3c/32.png) [@QueenAl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QueenAl)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/133 "2002-06-30T09:45:57Z")
**Kevlaw** , you are correct, Neil Kinnock is an atheist. Took me ages to find a cite for that, and it finally turned up on a ‘list of famous non-believers.’ [http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Theater/4619/religion/famous/il.html](http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Theater/4619/religion/famous/il.html) Guess who else was on there? Thomas Jefferson! However, since he was never elected Prime Minister, and lost both elections by a landslide, he’s not really a very informative example for this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![EchoKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@EchoKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EchoKitty)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/134 "2002-06-30T12:48:40Z")
I don’t know where you get that athiests want to outlaw religion. We’d like to see the country run via the constitution rather than the bible (christianity being the religion that crops up time and again on our money, in our courtrooms, i.e. the ten commandments). I’ve never seen another religion try to get their motto printed on money or someone else’s religious icon erected in a town square. The other religions seem content to worship in their churches, freely and legally, without foisting their beliefs on others. They haven’t tried to make us SECOND CLASS CITIZENS because we don’t attend their church. ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/135 "2002-06-30T14:49:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dalovindj \* > \*\*If **dreamer** was alive back in the day I’m sure she would have fought against people who said the world was round. Popular majority being so important to her and all. > > DaLovin’ Dj \*\* Popular Majority? Hmmm…I don’t see me being any part of the popular majority here, which is of no importance to me anyway. But your statement is quite amusing nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/136 "2002-06-30T14:51:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*I’ll second that sentiment. **dreamer** has been unfailingly polite in these threads and has thoroughly explained her position in response to other posters’ inquiries. That you disagree with her position is not sufficient basis to set her up as a defeder of ignorance. \*\* **minty green** Thank You 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/137 "2002-06-30T17:48:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Popular Majority? Hmmm…I don’t see me being any part of the popular majority here, which is of no importance to me anyway. But your statement is quite amusing nonetheless. Well, I am talking about in this country, not on this message board - I think the country has a higher overall percentage of ignorant morons than this MB. Glad _you_ are amused. I’m not amused. I find your position to be a case of wanting special treatment when you deserve none. It’s not as repulsive as the idea that an atheist can’t be patriotic, but it sure is foolish and bigoted. In short, keep your awful, evil, ugly, non-existant god off my damned money and out of our courts. I don’t accept his existence, and if I did, I still wouldn’t worship the evil pig-fucker. Screw him. Separation of church and state. I don’t understand how it got so confused. It seems pretty fucking simple. Fuck it, let’s put “Hail Allah!” on the money. Got a problem with that? I figured you did. Silly rabbit. DaLovin’ Dj ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/138 "2002-06-30T17:54:49Z")
DNFTDJ. ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/139 "2002-06-30T17:57:24Z")
> [@](#): > > DNFTDJ. Yeah, he wants freedom of religion. Imagine that? He wants the churches and the state to be separate. The nerve. . . . ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/140 "2002-06-30T18:05:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dalovindj \* > Glad _you_ are amused. I’m not amused. I find your position to be a case of wanting special treatment when you deserve none. \*\* I’m not amused, not at all. I have no problem understanding how you feel **da_lovin_dj** , we’re all entitled to fight for what we believe in. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211.md?page=8)