# Atheists want God outlawed? (WV\_Woman, please respond) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2002, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211 "2002-06-27T12:02:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/161 "2002-07-01T03:56:10Z")
I’m sorry, kevlaw, but does “we have agreed” mean the same thing as “I have said” in your language? ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/162 "2002-07-01T04:07:16Z")
How about you answer some question **kevlaw**? Do you honestly think the changed PoA was _not_ devisive? How do you interpret the word **indivisible**? Do you consider the laws of the nation to take precedence over “God’s law”? And last but certainly not least, where the hell do you get off calling athiests unpatriotic when the ones constantly attempting to pervert the spirit of the constitution are (a certain type of) Christian? To answer your question, the spirit of the constitution is quite clear- if the judges are too cowardly to do the right thing that doesn’t change what is plainly obvious. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/163 "2002-07-01T04:26:17Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m sorry, kevlaw, but does “we have agreed” mean the same thing as “I have said” in your language? Sorry Minty Green - I should have made it clear that I was summing up the exchange that I was having with Tomndebb. Feel free to point out any errors though… or point out anything you disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/164 "2002-07-01T04:30:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Do you honestly think the changed PoA was not devisive? I am not sure what I think has to do with the debate at hand. > [@](#): > > And last but certainly not least, where the hell do you get off calling athiests unpatriotic I don’t believe I did. > [@](#): > > To answer your question, the spirit of the constitution is quite clear Except to the people whose job it is to interpret it ? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/165 "2002-07-01T04:38:04Z")
kevlaw wrote: > [@](#): > > what will your view of the constitutionality of that change be when the legal system says it is constitutional ? **IF** the legal system says it is Constitutional. It ain’t over 'til the fat lady sings. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/166 "2002-07-01T04:39:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kevlaw \* > \*\*I don’t think it’s great leap for a god-fearing, patriotic christian american to assume that > > a) atheists are not patriotic and > b) atheists would want religion banned. > > Off the top of my head, I can’t think of a famous atheist government leader who didn’t try to ban religion.\*\* You’re right **kevlaw** , you didn’t say you think athiests aren’t patriotic. I suppose you’ve made it abundantly clear that you aren’t a patriotic christian as your example stated. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/167 "2002-07-01T04:43:59Z")
Or even more simply **kevlaw** , do you agree or disagree with the statement you posted? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/168 "2002-07-01T04:52:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Are you arguing that religious people are not a threat to the US ? Or that atheists are just like religious people ? In general, people are pretty much alike, despite differences in belief. In this country, we actually have more to fear from the moderately well-organized theocrats of the Religious Right (not all Christians or all Fundamentalist Christians, but that small group of followers of Roberston and Falwell and company) than we have to fear from the not-at-all organized assembly of people who are not religious. > [@](#): > > So we have precedents for modern, pluralistic countries to elect atheists as their leaders and we also have a clear trend that modern, pluralistic countries are turning away from Christianity. Given that evidence, I think it would be reasonable for god-fearing christians to expect an atheist government in the foreseeable future. We have evidence that a pluralistic society that elects an atheist has absolutely nothing to fear regarding a political effort to destroy or outlaw religion, given that none have made any effort to do so. This sugests to me that calls from the Religious Right to “defend” ourselves from atheism are prompted by a fear thet they will lose power, not a legitimate fear that they may be outlawed. (The fear may be real, but it is baseless and silly.) I certainly have a more legitimate fear (based on historical precedent) that the Religious Right will attempt to govern the way that I worship or interfere with what I may read or how my children will be taught in school than that some non-religious person such as Thomas Jefferson or Salvador Allende will attempt to prohibit me from worshipping or passing my faith to my children. And as a God-fearing, patriotic, Christian American, I make no assumptions that atheists would not be or are not already patriotic. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/169 "2002-07-01T06:07:21Z")
> [@](#): > > I only found one - Francois Mitterrand. I don’t know if he made any attempt to ban religion though. Anyone ? I don’t think he made any attempt to do anything which was related to religion. By the way, I’m not even sure he was atheist. More like agnostic, I’d guess. Anyway, there has probably been a lot of atheists elected in various countries. We would have to check the religious beliefs of every single leader and I guess we would find much more atheists than Mitterrand and Allende. The religious beliefs of foreign leaders seldom make it to the world news. Actually, in countries where religion isn’t a big issue, a lot of citizens may have no clue about their leader’s beliefs. For instance, I learnt only today, following a link provided in this thread that the former french prime minister, Jospin, was atheist. I knew his family was protestant, but I had no clue if he believed or not. And by the way, he didn’t do anything to ban religion, either. Apart the communist dictatorships, are there any other example of governments trying to ban religion (as a whole…not a particular religion, since this is rather common…in particular when the said government is driven by its own religious beliefs)? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/170 "2002-07-01T06:32:44Z")
—So we have precedents for modern, pluralistic countries to elect atheists as their leaders and we also have a clear trend that modern, pluralistic countries are turning away from Christianity.— Japan is a very unreligious society. Dunno about their prime ministers, but it’s nothing at all like in the U.S. where piety, true or feigned, is necessary to win majority support (since the majority often sees everything as a “with god/against god” issue) If you take atheism as simply the lack of god belief, then trying to chalk up Stalin and Mao as evidence of “what atheists might do” is about as silly as chalking up Henry the 6th as an example of “what theists might do.” Since atheism is not a philosophy or a common belief system, it makes only marginally less sense than acting as if all “theism” was the same. ---
**Author:** ![QueenAl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/d26b3c/32.png) [@QueenAl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QueenAl)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/171 "2002-07-01T10:09:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kevlaw \* > \*\*2) We have agreed that there are strong precedents for atheist rulers banning religion when they come to power. You claimed that those precedents were not relevant to the USA because > > a) the fact they were atheist was secondary to the fact that they were communist and > > b) those countries were different from the USA. It would be difficult - according to you - for a democratic, pluralistic country with a religious majority to elect an atheist leader.\*\* Can you name any atheist leader who tried to ban religion who _wasn’t_ Communist? > [@](#): > > \*\* > You yourself mentioned Salvador Allende. I’ll take your word for it that he was an atheist. From what I can gather from a little research, he was elected democratically by a population that is, according to the CIA World Factbook, Roman Catholic 89%, Protestant 11%. > > Francois Mitterand was democratically elected by a population that is, again according to the CIA, Roman Catholic 90%, Protestant 2%, Jewish 1%. > > As I pointed out before, Neil Kinnock came close (very very close) to being elected by an electorate that includes Anglican 27 million, Roman Catholic 9 million, Muslim 1 million, Presbyterian 800,000, Methodist 760,000, Sikh 400,000, Hindu 350,000, Jewish 300,000 in a population of 59,647,790. (Don’t know why the CIA makes us figure out the percentages for the UK but not France… Grrr). Call it 60-something percent.\*\* Neil Kinnock did not come close at all. He was in the running, but at a time when Labour were as ineffectual as the Tories are now; he had as much chance of becoming leader then as Ian Duncan Smith does today. Also, thank you for providing examples of atheist leaders (and non-leaders) who did not try to ban religion. > [@](#): > > \*\*Also, according to the American Religious Identification Survey at [http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/kurtz\_22\_3.htm](http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/kurtz_22_3.htm) > > and there was a 9% decline between 1990 and 2001 in the number of Americans who self-identify as Christians. > > So we have precedents for modern, pluralistic countries to elect atheists as their leaders and we also have a clear trend that modern, pluralistic countries are turning away from Christianity. Given that evidence, I think it would be reasonable for god-fearing christians to expect an atheist government in the foreseeable future.\*\* However, they are not the same countries. You’re collating different statistics to make a false conclusion. > [@](#): > > **Unfortunately many people, especially god-fearing christians, do not base their fears on _sound principles_. I maintain that it is not a great leap for GFPCAs to expect a growing atheist movement to want to restrict their rights to practice religion. As I said before, there are strong precedents. Despite the protests of those nice atheists at the Straight Dope, I expect there are many atheists who would be very happy to see religious practices restricted. I’ll find some if you like.** Of course there are a few atheists who feel that way - but are they people with power? Are they of anything like the same status as, say, Senator Richard Byrd? Or are they just a few individuals on the street? > [@](#): > > \*\*BTW Queen Al > > I sympathize - I had to go all the way to [www.google.com](http://www.google.com), enter _Neil Kinnock atheist_ and hit “I am feeling lucky”.\*\* Ah, thanks for the sarcasm. I used Yahoo and it did take ages. I take the time to double check a fact, concede that you were right, and you take the piss. Next time I’ll just state my opinion regardless of the facts - something you might well be familiar with. ---
**Author:** ![EchoKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@EchoKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EchoKitty)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/172 "2002-07-01T14:22:39Z")
EchoKitty said ## quote: ## I don’t know where you get that athiests want to outlaw religion. Then Kevlaw said, “I didn’t say that all atheists want to outlaw religion. But it doesn’t take all of them. It only takes some of them. Do you believe that there are no atheists who want to ban - or at least restrict religion ?” Athiests AS A GROUP don’t want to outlaw religion. They just want it taken out of government. What is so difficult about that statement that you and so many christians find impossible to understand? It’s not that tough! Yes, I’m sure there are rebel athiests out there that can’t wait for a moment to burn all the bibles and chop off the church steeples, but I hardly think it is a threat. The big threat lies in religion mixing in with goverment. You’ll see we were right when a religion OTHER THAN YOUR OWN starts running the show. Don’t say we didn’t warn ya! ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/173 "2002-07-01T17:42:35Z")
**Queen Al** > [@](#): > > Ah, thanks for the sarcasm Ah - sorry for that. It seemed funny at the time - but churlish now. I apologise. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/174 "2002-07-01T17:50:27Z")
> [@](#): > > IF the legal system says it is Constitutional. > > It ain’t over 'til the fat lady sings. And when the fat lady sings, **tracer** , what will your opinion be then ? Or will you wait for another fat lady to come along like Tomndebb ? ---
**Author:** ![EchoKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@EchoKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EchoKitty)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/175 "2002-07-01T17:57:11Z")
We’ll have to wait for non-learning impaired justices to take office and re-read the constitution and determine how America could POSSIBLY allow “under god” in the PoA. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/176 "2002-07-01T18:03:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Neil Kinnock did not come close at all. He was in the running, but at a time when Labour were as ineffectual as the Tories are now; he had as much chance of becoming leader then as Ian Duncan Smith does today. The Guardian (a left-leaning publication) didn’t seem to think so at the time > [@](#): > > The front page of the Guardian on April 10 1992, reporting an unexpected fourth consecutive victory for the Conservatives. [http://politics.guardian.co.uk/Politics/gallery/image/0,9353,-10804389507,00.html](http://politics.guardian.co.uk/Politics/gallery/image/0,9353,-10804389507,00.html) Nor did the Sun (right-leaning) > [@](#): > > If Kinnock wins today, will the last person to leave Britain please turn out the lights. [http://politics.guardian.co.uk/Politics/gallery/image/0,9353,-10104389507,00.html](http://politics.guardian.co.uk/Politics/gallery/image/0,9353,-10104389507,00.html) Or the BBC > [@](#): > > Labour went into the campaign more or less neck and neck with the Conservatives, at about 40% in the polls [http://www.bbc.co.uk/election97/background/pastelec/ge92lab.htm](http://www.bbc.co.uk/election97/background/pastelec/ge92lab.htm) Personally, I remember being extremely surprised that Kinnock didn’t win ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/177 "2002-07-01T18:19:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Or even more simply kevlaw, do you agree or disagree with the statement you posted? I believe it is not a great leap for a god-fearing, patriotic christian american to assume that atheists would want religion banned. What do you think **czarcasm**? Agree or disagree ? I also believe that there is a growing atheist sensibility in this and other countries that is become more organized. Also, Tomnedebb, > [@](#): > > we actually have more to fear from the moderately well-organized theocrats of the Religious Right [… snip …] than we have to fear from the not-at-all organized assembly of people who are not religious. I would say it depends on who you who mean by _ **we** _. If _ **we** _ are the atheists you are right. If _ **we** _ are the god-fearing christians, I have to disagree. And when the not-at-all organized assembly becomes the some-what-organized assembly and, say, marches on Washington ( [http://www.atheists.org/whatsnew.shtml](http://www.atheists.org/whatsnew.shtml) ) god-fearing christians will have even more reason to be be concerned. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/178 "2002-07-01T18:36:47Z")
> [@](#): > > We’ll have to wait for non-learning impaired justices to take office and re-read the constitution Would it be fair, **EchoKitty** , to characterize this as waiting for the fat lady to be replaced with another fat person who sings the song the way you think it should be sung ? ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/179 "2002-07-01T18:50:07Z")
> [@](#): > > By the way, I’m not even sure he was atheist I checked for you **clairobscur** > [@](#): > > Francois Mitterrand, French Politician (1916-1996). Publicly called himself an atheist on several occasions. [http://www.wonderfulatheistsofcfl.org/Quotes.htm](http://www.wonderfulatheistsofcfl.org/Quotes.htm) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211/180 "2002-07-01T18:55:43Z")
> [@](#): > > I would say it depends on who you who mean by we. If _ **we** _ are the atheists you are right. If _ **we** _ are the god-fearing christians, I have to disagree. > > And when the not-at-all organized assembly becomes the some-what-organized assembly and, say, marches on Washington ( [http://www.atheists.org/whatsnew.shtml](http://www.atheists.org/whatsnew.shtml) ) god-fearing christians will have even more reason to be be concerned. Nope. I _ **am** _ a God-fearing Christian and I have lots of historical precedence to show me that my worst fears are for some group of _religious_ people to take over the making or enforcement of laws. Every anti-religious movement that the U.S. has seen has been an assault by some self-professed group acting “for God.” Thomas Paine never endangered my rights. Thomas Jefferson never endangered my rights. Heck, Gus Hall never endangered my rights. Good “Christians,” however, are threatening the quality of my childrens’ education by insisting on selective presentation of history and the corruption of biology classes. Good “Christians” burned down churches in Baltimore in the 19th century because my denomination wanted to use a translation of the bible different than the KJV in the public school classrooms where all the children were taught. Good “Christians” made it necessary for the properties of the churches in both towns where I was raised to be purchased through an intermediary because no one would sell to an official of my denomination. I have read the original deeds to my parents’ houses that originally declared that people of my denomination (along with Jews, blacks, and some other “undesirable” elements) were forbidden to buy the property. (The three later examples are historical and would not occur today, but they are clearly examples of the actions of “god-fearing christians.”) And a good “Christian” in Congress tried to prevent the U.S. Army from providing chaplain and support services to Wiccans in the Army a year or so ago–I have never seen an athiest call for the chaplaincy of Christians to be removed from the military. Now, we have both Presidents Bush declaring that an atheist could not be a good citizen or that they should be barred from serving as judges (in violation of the Constitution). Nope. _ **We** _ (_i.e._, all thinking Americans) have much more to fear from the religious than from the irreligious or even anti-religious. Thanks for the heads up on the march. I’ll have to get some time off and think of a good supporting banner to display. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-want-god-outlawed-wv_woman-please-respond/116211.md?page=10)