# Atheists, what do you believe about the universe? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 20, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775 "2010-12-20T01:39:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775/1 "2010-12-20T01:39:41Z")
I’ve been talking in another thread about what atheists believe, and I’m curious about the atheists here. Note that I’m not interested in debating here, and for this thread I’m not interested in what folks who don’t identify as atheists think about the questions; it could be an interesting secondary poll to see what theists say on these subjects. Poll options forthcoming. Patience, please–I’ve never done a poll before. Edit: Shit, option 5 should say, “I’ve considered these questions, but have no answer to them.” I changed the wording midway through and screwed it up. And option 7 is poorly worded, but I think its meaning is clear. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775/2 "2010-12-20T01:49:55Z")
Woohoo, mine is the only answer that counts so far… (3) ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775/3 "2010-12-20T01:58:30Z")
I went with “your poll sucks” because my answer would be more like perception is reality or everything is relative. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775/4 "2010-12-20T02:01:28Z")
> [@Implicit](#): > > I went with “your poll sucks” because my answer would be more like perception is reality or everything is relative. Or, in other words, option 6, right? 😃 That kind of belief (that reality is subjective) is exactly why I put option 6 in there. ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775/5 "2010-12-20T02:11:06Z")
No, that option specifies believing the opposite of your first three statements. There are situations where one or more of those statements could be true. I prefer grey to black and white. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775/6 "2010-12-20T02:19:50Z")
I believe in options one through three. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775/7 "2010-12-20T02:21:02Z")
> [@Implicit](#): > > No, that option specifies believing the opposite of your first three statements. There are situations where one or more of those statements could be true. I prefer grey to black and white. It says “1, 2, and/or 3.” If you believe that perception is reality, don’t you believe that reality is subjective? Isn’t that the opposite of the first statement? Or am I misunderstanding you? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775/8 "2010-12-20T02:59:30Z")
I am not an atheist (and therefore didn’t vote) but you can believe that reality is neither a subjective thing nor an objective thing. ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775/9 "2010-12-20T03:03:22Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I am not an atheist (and therefore didn’t vote) but you can believe that reality is neither a subjective thing nor an objective thing. Yup, or both. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775/10 "2010-12-20T03:12:07Z")
Tho, I am not an athiest… I believe in the holographic universe. Within as without, on earth as it is in the celestial heavens. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775/11 "2010-12-20T03:26:57Z")
> [@Implicit](#): > > Yup, or both. Fair enough. And you’re an atheist? ---
**Author:** ![Walmarticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Walmarticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walmarticus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775/12 "2010-12-20T03:53:22Z")
I think it’s a good question, but am not confident enough to vote on the subject, unless my position could be “hey, good question!” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775/13 "2010-12-20T04:06:46Z")
I just thought of a follow-up question. For those of you that voted for propositions 1, 2, and 3, do these beliefs of yours have a direct relationship to your atheism? If so, what does that look like? They certainly have such a relationship for me. Because I believe in an objective, rational, logical universe that I can apprehend through my senses, I tend to reach other conclusions based on a combination of sensory evidence and application (with greater or lesser accuracy) of reason and logic. I’ve encountered no evidence that leads me to think any deity is likely, nor do I find the idea of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity to be consistent with the world we’re in, nor do I find the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient deity to be logically possible. Because of my beliefs about the universe, I also find religious faith to be mystifying, and I have real trouble understanding why anyone would consider having faith to be a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775/14 "2010-12-20T04:55:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > They certainly have such a relationship for me. Because I believe in an objective, rational, logical universe that I can apprehend through my senses, I tend to reach other conclusions based on a combination of sensory evidence and application (with greater or lesser accuracy) of reason and logic. I’ve encountered no evidence that leads me to think any deity is likely, nor do I find the idea of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity to be consistent with the world we’re in, nor do I find the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient deity to be logically possible. Because of my beliefs about the universe, I also find religious faith to be mystifying, and I have real trouble understanding why anyone would consider having faith to be a good thing. Hmm. Rather than repeat what you said in different words, I’ll just quote your post. I do, however, want to emphasize your last statement as I believe theistic belief retards humanity’s progress and intellectual evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775/15 "2010-12-20T06:56:24Z")
I voted for 1, 3 & 8. I did not vote for 2 because I don’t think _logical, illogical, rational_or_irrational_ are predicates that can be attached to _the universe_. The universe just is. Inductive and deductive reasoning are sound, but they are also tools that we have developed because they are useful. I can imagine that other beings in this or other universes could develop other structures or tools that would be more useful, but I can’t imagine how the tools we have could be invalid in this universe, or how something much like them would not be valid (even if not useful) in any universe. (I thought about typing a long caveat about Goedel’s Theorem here and maybe something else about the “unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics” but I decided not to.) Logic and rationality are the best and only tools we have for uncovering facts about the universe, but I think this is what logic and rationality are, not an additional fact about the universe. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775/16 "2010-12-20T14:16:47Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > I voted for 1, 3 & 8. I did not vote for 2 because I don’t think _logical, illogical, rational_or_irrational_ are predicates that can be attached to _the universe_. The universe just is. Inductive and deductive reasoning are sound, but they are also tools that we have developed because they are useful. > > I can imagine that other beings in this or other universes could develop other structures or tools that would be more useful, but I can’t imagine how the tools we have could be invalid in this universe, or how something much like them would not be valid (even if not useful) in any universe. (I thought about typing a long caveat about Goedel’s Theorem here and maybe something else about the “unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics” but I decided not to.) > > Logic and rationality are the best and only tools we have for uncovering facts about the universe, but I think this is what logic and rationality are, not an additional fact about the universe. Yes, I agree with this, which is why I didn’t tick the middle box. Especially “The universe just is.” ---
**Author:** ![Pabitel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@Pabitel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pabitel)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775/17 "2010-12-20T18:02:52Z")
Put me down as “I believe your poll sucks.” I don’t see how belief enters into it. The universe is that which I observe. I assume, not believe, but assume, that my perceptions have a basis in reality. I would be absurd to assume anything else. So I don’t believe the universe is “not subjective” I observe that it is. As soon as you start bringing “belief” into the discussion then the next logical step it to start proclaiming that everyone’s beliefs are equal. This is false. Atheism is not based on belief. It is based on observation. I observe that there is no place in the universe for a magical being that mimics humanity is all its foibles but is immensely powerful. The universe I observe simply does not allow for that eventuality. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775/18 "2010-12-20T18:08:45Z")
> [@Pabitel](#): > > Put me down as “I believe your poll sucks.” > > I don’t see how belief enters into it. Check out your previous sentence for an example of something an atheist believes :). I’m a little confused by how people like you, whose professed beliefs are captured by the poll, instead choose option 8. I certainly don’t suggest that all beliefs are equal, nor is that implication in the poll. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775/19 "2010-12-20T18:24:51Z")
Voted 1, 2, 3. I’m not as certain of 2 (which I interpreted as “reality is in principle understandable using logic/rationality”) as I am of 1 and 3, but thus far 2 seems to hold up fairly well - assuming that 1 and 3 are correct. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I just thought of a follow-up question. For those of you that voted for propositions 1, 2, and 3, do these beliefs of yours have a direct relationship to your atheism? If so, what does that look like? I’ve pretty much always been an atheist, so those beliefs certainly didn’t make me become an atheist, but I do think that understanding more about logic and the various ways our senses can imperfectly tell us stuff about the universe have made it much easier to see the various ways in which the majority of evidence for or proofs of gods tend to be unconvincing, sloppy, or outright false. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775/20 "2010-12-20T18:36:08Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Voted 1, 2, 3. I’m not as certain of 2 (which I interpreted as “reality is in principle understandable using logic/rationality”) as I am of 1 and 3, but thus far 2 seems to hold up fairly well - assuming that 1 and 3 are correct. This is a good point: I wonder if it would have been clearer if I’d phrased it as you did, or said something like, “Logic and reason are useful tools for describing reality.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-do-you-believe-about-the-universe/564775.md?page=2)