# Atheists - What drives you? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 29, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030 "2013-04-29T18:09:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/281 "2013-05-06T11:22:11Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But you think it’s possible? I personally don’t - I think the _only_ way to properly “fake” human sentience is to _be_ humanly sentient. Remember, a p-Zombie doesn’t just pass most tests for human sentience, it passes any you can conceive of. In the case of robots, how about if you could give it some sort of ‘_feelings_’ it would actually experience as unpleasant or pleasant? They don’t have to be our exact human manifestations of how we feel; knotted stomach, anxiety etc.. I guess that would be the challenge. Have some sort of stimulus that it would want to avoid or have. From there it would just be a matter of programming couplings of desired stimuli to particular situations. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/282 "2013-05-06T13:47:12Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’ve asked more than once for some type of method that non-literalists (and this goes beyond liberals) use to decide which parts of the Bible they believe in, and which are just stories - beyond the obvious. Never have gotten an answer. My observation has been that you decide what morality you buy into, and then choose the parts of the Bible that support it. And lots of people who do this seem to be significantly more moral than God (at least the God of a more or less literal reading.) I can offer what I’m always told by my Christian friends. They honestly believe their interpretation of scripture is led by The Holy Spirit. Without it, you can’t truly understand the Bible. Nevermind that they all seem to be led in a different way. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/283 "2013-05-06T14:30:06Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > In the case of robots, how about if you could give it some sort of ‘_feelings_’ it would actually experience as unpleasant or pleasant? They don’t have to be our exact human manifestations of how we feel; knotted stomach, anxiety etc.. > I guess that would be the challenge. Have some sort of stimulus that it would want to avoid or have. > From there it would just be a matter of programming couplings of desired stimuli to particular situations. And at some point in this continuum of couplings you will have replicated human raw feels. “Knotted stomach” isn’t a quale - qualia are _ineffable_, remember. “The quale that can be named is not the true quale” … apparently :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/284 "2013-05-06T15:03:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And at some point in this continuum of couplings you will have replicated human raw feels. “Knotted stomach” isn’t a quale - qualia are _ineffable_, remember. “The quale that can be named is not the true quale” … apparently :rolleyes: Well that’s just silly. If you can not even name it, it doesn’t exist. I mean, even the gods have names.. I could accept the idea of qualia as “an internal/personal experience”. That would include sensory experiences and feelings or emotions involving our organs, such as taste, being cold being in love or having an itch. After all I could never experience _your_ particular itch. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/285 "2013-05-06T15:25:59Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Well that’s just silly. > > If you can not even name it, it doesn’t exist. The translation isn’t precise - it comes from the Tao Te Ching: “The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao; The name that can be named is not the eternal name.” It’s centrally bound up in the concept of ineffability. > [@](#): > > I mean, even the gods have names… But do they have qualities that can be named? Which ones? Any contradictory ones? Same-same for qualia. > [@](#): > > I could accept the idea of qualia as “an internal/personal experience”. That would include sensory experiences and feelings or emotions involving our organs, such as taste, being cold being in love or having an itch. There’s a _bit_ more to qualia than just being internal experiences. > [@](#): > > After all I could never experience _your_ particular itch. How would you know? All itches could be the same, and you wouldn’t know. Ineffability, right? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/286 "2013-05-06T17:40:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But you think it’s possible? I personally don’t - I think the _only_ way to properly “fake” human sentience is to _be_ humanly sentient. Remember, a p-Zombie doesn’t just pass most tests for human sentience, it passes any you can conceive of. I agree. The Chinese Room paradox is nonsense, since it is impossible to construct such a room without a nearly infinite number of cards. You could do it practically with states (that is writing down what just got said and responding based on it) and a meta-analysis of the state, which might be what consciousness is all about. After all, what is the difference between solving a problem consciously and subconsciously? It is just watching yourself in the process of solving it, as opposed to the answer popping out. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/287 "2013-05-06T17:44:29Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > By qualia fan I meant someone who thinks something inherently spiritual and supernatural is going on because we can’t nail down experiences. Just being a bit snarky, don’t read too much into it. Personally, I wouldn’t restrict the term to believers in the supernatural; there are some dualists who nevertheless don’t believe in anything supernatural, David Chalmers being one example. Generally, by ‘qualia fan’ I’d designate somebody who thinks that there is at least an epistemic gap between the physical and the mental, i.e. that it isn’t possible (not even in principle) to account for subjective existence solely in physical terms. Mild forms of this would be somebody believing in strong emergence, or non-reductive (e.g. Russellian) monism. In such a case, any explanation of mental content will invariably still contain references to the mental, but this need not imply that the mental is substantially different from the physical. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/288 "2013-05-06T18:07:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Do you believe it’s possible to exhibit all outwards signs of being sentient like you, without manifesting qualia i.e. do you believe [philosphical zombies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie) are possible? I think it’s **possible** in the same way that it’s **possible** I’m a brain in a vat, but I think it’s pretty much useless to assume something is a p-zombie if there’s no way to tell otherwise. To me a p-zombie is like an invisible, intangible unicorn – sure, one could be following me around, but it’s undetectable so it’s useless to think about. Once you start postulating things that are exactly like something else except in one way that absolutely nothing in the universe can detect, it’s hard not to just jump ship to “everything is an illusion”, “maybe invisible monkeys are what dark matter really is” or any other number of crazy things. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/289 "2013-05-06T21:21:43Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > I can offer what I’m always told by my Christian friends. They honestly believe their interpretation of scripture is led by The Holy Spirit. Without it, you can’t truly understand the Bible. Nevermind that they all seem to be led in a different way. I used to work with a very pleasant chap who believed that the bible was the inspired word of God and that he could feel the truthfulness of it. I offered an experiment where I would write out a number of short passages from the bible and mix these with a similar number of short passages that I had written, worded to sound as though they had come from the same translation, but made up by me and presumably uninspired. He would then sort these into inspired and uninspired. Sadly he demurred; he was very polite about it but felt it was perhaps a bit blasphemous. ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/290 "2013-05-06T23:49:07Z")
I wish I could believe in a supernatural god but I cannot suspend all logic. People need religion…but I get quite upset at believers who think atheists lack moral conscience and want to impose their superstitions, which I think religions are, on me. ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/291 "2013-05-06T23:52:25Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Good point. It’s a cliche that there are no atheists in foxholes, but if people are frantically praying not to meet their maker, maybe they should add, nor is there anyone who really believes he is going to paradise when he dies. > > Which brings us to Muslims. It has always struck me that, for better or worse, they are much more consistent in their beliefs than Christians. Most Christians don’t know much about the Bible, and most of the minority who actually read it either ignore or explain away the parts they don’t like. Much of what proud Christians point to in Sharia Law as barbaric, such as punishing women for being rape victims, was copied from the Bible. Muslims seem to actually believe that their scriptures should be followed and trusted, while most Christians seem to just give lip service to their scriptures. > > What’s really strange is that they disagree over which parts to ignore. Liberal Christians ignore large swaths of the Old Testament, like the clear injunctions against homosexuality, while conservative Christians embrace those verses, but ignore much of what Jesus said about helping the poor and sick. Religious people Condemn the sins they don’t commit and forgive the ones they do. The condemn sexuality, but forgive shopping on the sabbath or divorce. ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/292 "2013-05-06T23:53:37Z")
> [@Prejteach2](#): > > Religious people Condemn the sins they don’t commit and forgive the ones they do. The condemn sexuality, but forgive shopping on the sabbath or divorce. Oops, I meant homosexuality ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/293 "2013-05-07T00:42:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The proper answer to that would be\* “How can I meaningfully describe how I feel to a soulless automaton of meat? No mass of carbon compounds and water could ever be anything more than a mindless thing unconsciously imitating true feelings and self awareness!”\* I love you and want to co-write comic books with you! (Now, do we know any artists?) 🙂 > [@MrDibble](#): > > Do you believe it’s possible to exhibit all outwards signs of being sentient like you, without manifesting qualia i.e. do you believe [philosphical zombies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie) are possible? I’d say yes, they are possible. It’s a “Turing Test” sort of thing; you can always use a “brute force” method. In the main, I agree that a system that is able to use words and ideas with full appropriate attention to meaning and context must “understand” the ideas. But alternatives could exist. (Marvel Comics explored this with their “Life Model Decoy” androids, intended as dummy targets to draw the fire of assassins. Over time, they became more and more sophisticated, until one eventually became a character in a story, with goals and hopes and aspirations of her own. Or…just a sim? That’s the joy of the Turing Test: once you pass it, nobody can know, ever again, if you really comprehend, or are just faking it surpassing well.) ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/294 "2013-05-07T00:43:37Z")
> [@Prejteach2](#): > > Religious people Condemn the sins they don’t commit and forgive the ones they do. The condemn sexuality, but forgive shopping on the sabbath or divorce. Yeah, they want the Ten Commandments posted in our schools and courthouses, but they don’t seem to realize that Yaweh called for the death penalty for anybody who does any work on the Sabbath. Mow your lawn, die. Wash your car, die. And as you said, go shopping, die. Most of them don’t even know that, because DeMille left it out of his movie. Most of the ones who do, say Jesus made that invalid. I think they have a very weak case for that, since Jesus explicitly said that not a jot or tittle of the Mosaic Law would change until heaven and earth pass away, and he greatly weakened the criteria for being guilty of murder and adultery, but if they’re right, then why are they so hot for the parts of the Mosaic Law that don’t inconvenience them? ---
**Author:** ![\_3Bill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/b9e5f3/32.png) [@\_3Bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_3Bill)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/295 "2013-05-07T08:29:53Z")
> [@Prejteach2](#): > > Religious people Condemn the sins they don’t commit and forgive the ones they do. So do I. So do most people I know. Littering? What contempt for our shared world. Keeping library books overdue? Oh, come on, the last time anyone checked out Appointment in Samarra was when it first came out. Besides, they surely have another copy if someone MUST read it this week. Hypocrisy? Tsk tsk. Intellectual arrogance? Eh. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/296 "2013-05-07T10:25:00Z")
> [@\_3Bill](#): > > So do I. So do most people I know. > > Littering? > What contempt for our shared world. > > Keeping library books overdue? > Oh, come on, the last time anyone checked out Appointment in Samarra was when it first came out. Besides, they surely have another copy if someone MUST read it this week. > > Hypocrisy? Tsk tsk. > Intellectual arrogance? Eh. The same for me as well. But then again, I can recognize that stealing a hundred dollars is lightyears away from raping and murdering someone. Many Christians would agree with me…until they remember God hates all sins equally. ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/297 "2013-05-07T21:29:53Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Yeah, they want the Ten Commandments posted in our schools and courthouses, but they don’t seem to realize that Yaweh called for the death penalty for anybody who does any work on the Sabbath. Mow your lawn, die. Wash your car, die. And as you said, go shopping, die. > > Most of them don’t even know that, because DeMille left it out of his movie. Most of the ones who do, say Jesus made that invalid. I think they have a very weak case for that, since Jesus explicitly said that not a jot or tittle of the Mosaic Law would change until heaven and earth pass away, and he greatly weakened the criteria for being guilty of murder and adultery, but if they’re right, then why are they so hot for the parts of the Mosaic Law that don’t inconvenience them? How do tell the girl who was raped her father that she has to honor him according to the bible? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030.md?page=14)