# Atheists - What drives you? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 29, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030 "2013-04-29T18:09:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![sWozzAres](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/51bf81/32.png) [@sWozzAres](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sWozzAres)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/121 "2013-04-30T14:22:21Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Nope, that’s the uncertainty principle, which is very different from the measurement problem. Um, the measurement problem **is due** to the uncertainty principle 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/122 "2013-04-30T14:25:57Z")
> [@sWozzAres](#): > > Really? You can’t see that the unified field is present everywhere (omnipresence)? This doesn’t need deriving, it’s obvious from semantics. :smack: What, exactly, do you mean by ‘unified field’? Because if you use it in the way it’s used in physics, then 1) we don’t know if it exists, 2) it’s actually currently nowhere, as (if it exists) it only exists at extreme temperatures not currently present in the universe, and 3) even then it’s only everywhere in the same sense that spacetime is everywhere (since everything is effectively an excitation of the field, it defines where things can be), which is vacuously. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/123 "2013-04-30T14:27:15Z")
> [@sWozzAres](#): > > Really? You can’t see that the unified field is present everywhere (omnipresence)? This doesn’t need deriving, it’s obvious from semantics. :smack: What teachings/books/lectures are you deriving your ideas from? ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/124 "2013-04-30T14:28:29Z")
> [@sWozzAres](#): > > Um, the measurement problem **is due** to the uncertainty principle 😉 No. The measurement problem is the question how, if a state is in a superposition, measurement induces the ‘collapse’ into a definite-value eigenstate of the observable being measured, while the uncertainty principle fundamentally derives from the noncommutativity of observables in quantum mechanics. They’re different things. ---
**Author:** ![sWozzAres](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/51bf81/32.png) [@sWozzAres](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sWozzAres)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/125 "2013-04-30T14:31:44Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I was actually discussing this yesterday with my wife. We were hiking through a state park. The spring ephemerals were all over, trees and bushes were budding out, and the birds were singing like crazy. All around me I saw things that interested me greatly - the different plants - mosses, ferns, horsetails, flowering plants. Trying to identify birds by their songs. We saw a ton of fish heading down a stream towards a larger river - what was going on there? And the rocks in the canyons we were hiking through. How did these limestones form, and how were they lifted up to be where they now are? And that, in a nutshell is what life is all about - phenomenal experience 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![sWozzAres](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/51bf81/32.png) [@sWozzAres](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sWozzAres)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/126 "2013-04-30T15:00:05Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Are you talking about a deterministic universe? Not really, though it does allow escape from determinism into compatibilism where free-will and determinism can co-exist. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > If borne out by evidence to be so, how does it necessarily prove the existance of god? If the unified field exists, it proves the existence of a God-like phenomenon - whether you are willing to concede that God and the unified field are one and same is ultimately down to you. The point is that they have the same attributes so they must (as far as is discernable) describe the same phenomenon. Of course this may well be a problem of appearences, since the brain is limited in representation it may be that it just cannot conceive of the differences, rendering you unaware of them. This is what I mean by science and religion pointing in the same direction, either they are onto something or they have both hit an impass innate to the mind, a place where any further postering will inevitably sound like describing the same thing since they are both trying to describe something that is undescribeable except through the use of analogy and metaphor. For instance, you can only perceive 7 colours (qualia) so if I shine both red and green into your eyes you will see yellow. There is no yellow light outthere but you also cannot conceive of a new colour and you can’t perceive red and green in the same place at the same time so the brain does what it can which means presenting this information in terms of what you already understand - namely yellow. You’ve reached one of the many limitations of the mind where both yellow light and red/green light appear the same despite the fact that they are quite different. ---
**Author:** ![AnthonyElite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@AnthonyElite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnthonyElite)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/127 "2013-04-30T15:03:53Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I’m not reading the rest of this thread. My reason is that there’s no “debate” in the OP. Everything he says is based on his subjective feelings . . . no facts, no evidence, no justification, no reason . . . just subjective random feelings, and kind of wishy-washy ones at that. Do you expect us to counteract that with our own subjective feelings? Perhaps I haven’t been sitting near the right waterfall, feeling the sun dappling on my skin. It was a question, I was simply expanding my interpretation of it, no one asked you to stay anyway. I don’t expect you to have the same feelings. You said your piece, move along. ---
**Author:** ![AnthonyElite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@AnthonyElite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnthonyElite)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/128 "2013-04-30T15:06:31Z")
> [@sWozzAres](#): > > I don’t believe in any deities, but I do believe in something greater. This is the thing from which the space-time emerged (at The Big Bang). However, since your mind is limited in representation (everything has to be spatially and/or temporally represented) then it is physiologically impossible for you to imagine the nature of this thing, therefore you can never know. > > Strangely, it is this unknown that drives me since well, you never know! Humans are born, they move about, then die. The mind emerges, does some thinking then vanishes into oblivion, surplus to requirements. The universe is far more awesome than anyone can possibly imagine! So I take comfort in the belief that whatever explanations the human mind comes up with for existence, will pale into insignificance compared to a complete understanding of it’s true nature, which I fully expect to be awesome beyond belief. > > I do believe however that the afterlife exists in the minds of the those you leave behind, so if you want to go to heaven, be good to all multicellular lifeforms that have a central nervous system! That’s a very nice interpretation of the universe, I like it! I’d like to think that that is part of my system as well; the idea that we can’t know, that we aren’t built for it. ---
**Author:** ![AnthonyElite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@AnthonyElite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnthonyElite)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/129 "2013-04-30T15:14:31Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **sWozzAres** , welcome to the Straight Dope! > > I am a theist who doesn’t believe in Satan. I don’t believe that Hitler, Stalin, or other tyrants will be in a hell. But the after-life that I do think may be quite possible is different from the “streets of gold and Pearly Gates” concept. It is an awareness of total bliss. It’s kind of hard to get tired of bliss. > > There are ways to be at peace without believing in God. Those waterfalls _are_ a source of peace. So is living in the moment. > > I think that I would still follow the teachings of the Christ and the wisdom of other faiths even if I didn’t believe in life after death. I have _never_ believed in an angry God. None of the Christians that I know believe in an angry God. I am aware that some **fundamentalists** do. So far, fundamentalists do not make up the majority of Christians. > > And there are many times when religions do have positive effects on progress, on human rights, and on morality. > > I’m fairly sure there are probably Christians in my church who do not believe in natural selection or evolution. I just haven’t met them. I’ve considered these theories to be amazing since I was a child. There was not squabbling about it in my rural, Southern, small-town school biology class either in the Fifties. > > (Bold type added.} > > **Der Trihs** , have I personally treated you or your atheism with “insane hatred”? The Christians that I know and the atheists that I know are not filled with this hatred that you speak of. Do you attack religions with hatred? > > Yes, but sometimes fantasizing can lead to what is. Einstein’s Theory of Relativity began with his daydreaming about that it would be like riding a beam of light at the speed of light. > > And sometimes reality can be not at all what we expect. > > My charities are for the hungry, the cold and poor, the arts, political movements, the environment. I think I would still do this whether I was a Christian or not. But it was through the church that I learned about the poorest county in the country. It’s on Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota. The unemployment rate there is 70% and per capita income is $4,000 annually. The church can be a means of service: My Sunday School Class made American Indian burial cloths for those who have not been given an appropriate burial. Some of the graves are being moved. > > I will be glad to be more specific about any of these charities. I have no doubt that many atheists do similar things. > I asked you once what any Christian had done to you personally. You said “nothing.” Anger can eat you up alive. And unfounded anger is such a waste. And, of course, religion is not a mental disease. You won’t find that in a desk reference on any psychiatrist’s desk. Please don’t exaggerate in your posts. It ruins your arguments. > > There are things about other faiths that I do believe: Buddhism especially. And the Baha’is. I would like to study more about the Tao. I am a Protestant, and I have attended other Protestant churchs, Unity (member), Unitarian, Anglican (menber), and the Baha’is. I meditate, try to understand Buddhist teachings – all in an effort to grow in my understanding. I think that many of the great religions have much in common. > > What drives me? It differs each day. Nature, my husband, curiosity, the wicker swing on my front porch, scents, my memories, friendships, recovering from lung cancer, a new hat, the need there is for me to help. Great post! At times I think some atheists are so vitriolic because in the past they have been persecuted, and so they want their chance to do the same. However, I would hope such an enlightened and intelligent group would realize that their very existence depends on the idea that we are free to believe as we wish and not be persecuted and denigrated for it. I like that you are taking bits from other religions to pull together what you believe, I think I do the same. I may not believe the religion’s specifics, but there is a lot to be taken away from years of wisdom encapsulated in religion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/130 "2013-04-30T15:16:52Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#): > > That’s a very nice interpretation of the universe, I like it! I’d like to think that that is part of my system as well; the idea that we can’t know, that we aren’t built for it. And posts like this are also a part of what drives me as an atheist-the thought that all you have to do is accept “nice interpretations” as facts and make your own reality is lazy thinking at best. ---
**Author:** ![AnthonyElite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@AnthonyElite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnthonyElite)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/131 "2013-04-30T15:20:22Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The en-vogue “Spiritual but not religious”, which claims [30% of those surveyed by Gallup](http://www.gallup.com/poll/7759/americans-spiritual-searches-turn-inward.aspx) in the U.S. > > I simply think of it as religion for the lazy and undisciplined, it demands no thought and contains no strictures. I really don’t think that is a fair assessment. I am not too lazy to be a Christian - I just don’t believe in Jesus. I am not undisciplined; I have a master’s degree, hold a steady job, pay my bills, am active in my community. The simplest way I can relate it is that I **feel** a certain divinity, and while I cannot ascribe that divinity to any one religion, I feel it nonetheless. I feel that there are some things that cannot be known that are key to this life, and while atheists may claim that we basically know the answer, this is not true. We don’t know what caused the big bang, where the universe expands into, when time started, will stop, or if it continues forever. To act as if you know these answers is vanity and goes against your scientific principles of not making postulation law. Do you think that one cannot both have theism (or agnosticism) and have full faith in the scientific process? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/132 "2013-04-30T15:20:28Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#): > > Great post! At times I think some atheists are so vitriolic because in the past they have been persecuted, and so they want their chance to do the same. However, I would hope such an enlightened and intelligent group would realize that their very existence depends on the idea that we are free to believe as we wish and not be persecuted and denigrated for it. And here comes the “Atheists are secretly God-Haters!” cheap shot that ignores anything and everything that has been posted by us in this thread and so many others. Is this an aspect of your “Reality is anything I want it to be” belief system? ---
**Author:** ![sWozzAres](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/51bf81/32.png) [@sWozzAres](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sWozzAres)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/133 "2013-04-30T15:21:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What teachings/books/lectures are you deriving your ideas from? That would be a long list covering 20 years of fascination with Cosmology, Physics, Emergence, Philosophy, Natural History, Evolution, Psychology, Cellular Biology, Neuroscience, Cosmogany essentially anything that can offer clues to the nature of reality. Don’t get me wrong, I am just an average Joe looking for interesting conversation, I claim no expertese, just trying to join the dots to form a holistic view that makes sense, primarily through logical deduction. ---
**Author:** ![AnthonyElite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@AnthonyElite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnthonyElite)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/134 "2013-04-30T15:24:20Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Let’s do a little thought experiment (to avoid anyone getting hurt, IRL). > > On your next commute to/from work, let Jesus take the wheel. What do you suppose will be the end result? Have you noticed how often you see crosses on the sides of rural roads marking a scene of a fatal accident? Do you suppose it’s because Christians are terrible drivers, or maybe Jesus never passed his road test?.. > > To summarize: In life, as when in my car, I drive. Why do I drive? Because I’m not covered for unlicensed and uninsured frictional drivers. > > Glib analogy? Sure. But I think it sufficient in illustrating the point. Your thought experiment falls short. You are assuming a faith that believes the divine would act to intervene in this world. In my belief that would surely end in my untimely death. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/135 "2013-04-30T15:24:24Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#): > > Do you think that one cannot both have theism (or agnosticism) and have full faith in the scientific process? I can come up with an incredibly large number of cases where religionism/spiritualism has totally failed. Can you come up with cases where the scientific process, when properly applied, failed? ---
**Author:** ![AnthonyElite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@AnthonyElite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnthonyElite)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/136 "2013-04-30T15:28:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And here comes the “Atheists are secretly God-Haters!” cheap shot that ignores anything and everything that has been posted by us in this thread and so many others. Is this an aspect of your “Reality is anything I want it to be” belief system? Czarcasm, are you unable to read and comprehend? I said “some”. There are those in every camp that cause the entire camp to have a bad name. I do not say that those members accurately represent your group. And please, quit convoluting my words. I simply stated in a post that reality is whatever **you** perceive it to be, for you. Theoretically it is entirely possible that everything around you is all a construct of your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/137 "2013-04-30T15:31:24Z")
> [@sWozzAres](#): > > If the unified field exists, it proves the existence of a God-like phenomenon What do you mean be ‘unified field’? In what sense is it ‘God-like’? ---
**Author:** ![AnthonyElite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@AnthonyElite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnthonyElite)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/138 "2013-04-30T15:33:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And posts like this are also a part of what drives me as an atheist-the thought that all you have to do is accept “nice interpretations” as facts and make your own reality is lazy thinking at best. It’s not lazy thinking Czarcasm. if you honestly think you know the answers to what created this universe and why it is here please tell us because scientists are dying to know. The truth is we don’t know. And as an agnostic I feel that we don’t have the capacity to know. That isn’t laziness. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/139 "2013-04-30T15:34:58Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#): > > …I feel that there are some things that cannot be known that are key to this life, and while atheists may claim that we basically know the answer, this is not true. We don’t know what caused the big bang, where the universe expands into, when time started, will stop, or if it continues forever. To act as if you know these answers is vanity and goes against your scientific principles of not making postulation law. You are putting words into the mouths of atheists. Atheists do not claim to have all the answers. Atheists only claim is that evidence for god is lacking. Additionally, “because god” is not sufficient explanation for anything. > [@AnthonyElite](#): > > Do you think that one cannot both have theism (or agnosticism) and have full faith in the scientific process? Preconceived notions do tend to get in the way. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030/140 "2013-04-30T15:41:33Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#): > > I really don’t think that is a fair assessment. I am not too lazy to be a Christian - I just don’t believe in Jesus. I am not undisciplined; I have a master’s degree, hold a steady job, pay my bills, am active in my community. I mean lazy and undisciplined in this specific area, not in all aspects of life. Say what you will about the devoutly religious, at least they are putting effort in: memorizing scripture, following strict rules, agonizing over the proper interpretations of ancient books that have been translated far from their original language. I can respect that, in a way. I don’t think it produces anything of value, but the process itself has value. Vague spiritualism has no such value. It demands nothing, it offers nothing, it is worth nothing. It largely exists to produce warm-and-fuzzies, without the cold materialism of atheism or the strict rules and work of religion. > [@AnthonyElite](#): > > The simplest way I can relate it is that I **feel** a certain divinity, and while I cannot ascribe that divinity to any one religion, I feel it nonetheless. I feel that there are some things that cannot be known that are key to this life, and while atheists may claim that we basically know the answer, this is not true. We don’t know what caused the big bang, where the universe expands into, when time started, will stop, or if it continues forever. To act as if you know these answers is vanity and goes against your scientific principles of not making postulation law. That feeling is a product of your mind, and is not reflective of external reality. > [@AnthonyElite](#): > > Do you think that one cannot both have theism (or agnosticism) and have full faith in the scientific process? If you’re very good at compartmentalization, sure. Otherwise, no. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-drives-you/657030.md?page=8)