# Atheists: What would it take for you to believe? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 25, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712 "2011-10-25T04:11:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/41 "2011-10-25T14:37:44Z")
> [@AaronX](#): > > In what language? How about a different one every day? We could start with Spanish, Latin, Arabic, and Chinese. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/42 "2011-10-25T14:51:23Z")
For me to believe in a god that created the human race, I would have had to have been born with knowledge of its existence and what it wants from me already hardwired into my head. And no, that does not obliterate free will, since we do not choose what we believe, and we would still have the choice to not do what it wanted us to do. How ridiculous this god is that people believe in these days, that expects us to believe the truth via the the chance of being born in the right time to the right family in the right sect of the right religion. ---
**Author:** ![AaronX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7bcc69/32.png) [@AaronX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AaronX)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/43 "2011-10-25T14:51:50Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Anything else, and I could explain it by sufficiently advanced technology, trickery, deceit, self-delusion, or psychosis. That’s another thing. If you ignore the religious aspect of it, how can you tell “god” from really advanced aliens? Break the laws of physics? Maybe they just know the laws better. Reanimate the dead? The only things I can think of are 1) messing with free will or 2) control over events that should be random (God cheats at dice?) ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/44 "2011-10-25T14:57:19Z")
First I’d have to actually be capable of “believing,” which I’m just not. If there were enough evidence of some god’s existence, it wouldn’t be a matter of belief. And isn’t that the point? Faith isn’t Faith if you need proof, right? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/45 "2011-10-25T17:28:48Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > First I’d have to actually be capable of “believing,” which I’m just not. If there were enough evidence of some god’s existence, it wouldn’t be a matter of belief. I think this is what I was trying to say, but much more succinctly. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/46 "2011-10-25T17:36:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Atheists: What would it take for you to believe? \*\* Evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/47 "2011-10-25T18:01:30Z")
Let’s put it this way. Back in the 80s there was a Marvel Comics character called “[The Beyonder](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beyonder)”. This was a being from another universe, who could do anything. He was literally omnipotent. He could bring the dead back to life. He could make suns explode. He could control minds. The only thing he could not do was understand the emotion you Hu-mons call “Love”. Is the Beyonder God? I mean, the Beyonder could replicate every miracle in the Bible by snapping his fingers. And mind you, this is in a universe where small-g gods like Thor and Hercules wander around New York City, not to mention entities like Galactus who literally eat planets for breakfast. No, the Beyonder is an entity far more powerful than a mere god like Thor. So does that make the Beyonder God? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/48 "2011-10-25T18:12:41Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > Isn’t the whole concept of a deity not falsifiable, and therefore (at least in Popperian philosophy of science) anything that might be offered as proof of existence of a deity cannot be tested as such? Forgive me if I have muddled some concepts here - I was asleep through most of my philosophy of science classes. That something can’t be falsified means it is not a good scientific hypothesis, not that it can’t be demonstrated. You can’t really falsify the existence of unicorns, but if you snagged on you can demonstrate their existence. In 1800 no one could falsify the claim that rocks fell out of the sky - but they could eventually verify it. So, not being able to falsify god doesn’t mean god can’t prove his existence if he ever felt like showing up. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/49 "2011-10-25T18:14:22Z")
Easy. 1. First, apologize for all the broken promises. I did what I was told by religious leaders and did not receive all the blessings as advertised. I also did what they told me _not_ to do and none of those bad things they promised happened either. So I’m going to need to know what “true” really is. 2. If this is a Christian god, then next, explain the Atonement to me. It has to make sense. Like, real-world logical sense. 3. Prove it. That you’re the diety and all. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/50 "2011-10-25T18:15:19Z")
If I died and woke up in the afterlife, I’d find that fairly convincing. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/51 "2011-10-25T18:19:21Z")
> [@AaronX](#): > > Suppose one day you have a vision, and it goes something like, “My child, I am real. What would you have me do for you to believe?” > > Demonstration that defies the laws of science? I’d go with a Randi-like demonstration also, in public, on demand, and repeatable. A message in the stars works pretty well, since I can’t conceive of aliens, no matter how powerful, who could do that on demand. The location of the stars spelling out the message can be verified fairly easily. If it were just me, I’d as about a proof or counterexample of P = NP, though advanced aliens might be able to come up with that. Chatting with departed relatives - no dark rooms, hand holding or rapping, please, might work also, to some extent. > [@](#): > > Coherent theory about how the world works and where God fits into it? No way - we have the first part - science, and the second part, nowhere. > [@](#): > > Explanation about what God’s been doing and why there’s suffering in the world? No way - we have plenty of nonsense “explanations” for this already. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/52 "2011-10-25T18:31:32Z")
I’ve always kind of wondered the inverse. Theists: What would it take for you to stop believing? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/53 "2011-10-25T18:57:43Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > no dark rooms, hand holding or rapping, please But I thought hand holding and rapping were the same. Wait, one too many letters. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/54 "2011-10-25T19:13:40Z")
> [@AaronX](#): > > Sorry if this has been posted before, just show me the link if it has. > > Suppose one day you have a vision, and it goes something like, “My child, I am real. What would you have me do for you to **believe**?” > > Demonstration that defies the laws of science? > Coherent theory about how the world works and where God fits into it? > Explanation about what God’s been doing and why there’s suffering in the world? (bolding mine) You misunderstand the concept ‘believe’, if I can get God to prove she’s God I won’t believe in God, I’ll KNOW. I (as an agnostic) have no problem with knowing stuff, it’s the believing I have trouble with. Hell if I would know there is a God I’ll even do some worshipping, but seeing the overwhelming lack of proof I’ll skip that for the moment. To answer the OP’s question: It can’t be done, even for an omnipotent being; nothing can get me to believe in God. If there is no proof: I’ll stick with the null-hypothesis: If God proofs her existance: Still no belief, cold hard knowledge: Yes. Believe: No. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/55 "2011-10-25T19:24:35Z")
I think it’s pretty revealing that most capital Atheists seem to default to not believing in Yahweh. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/56 "2011-10-25T19:26:12Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > I think my response (assuming it wasn’t just making the mental note, “Damn, I better get a CAT scan and find out why I’m hallucinating”) would be “Aren’t you supposed to omnipotent? So why do you have to ask?” Yep–a supposedly omniscient (or omnipotent) being who asked me a question would merit a serious eyebrow-raise. My response would be, “How about you tell ME what you can do that will convince me? YOU’RE the genius here!” The “message in the stars” is one I’m fond of. However, i see no reason to limit it to one language a night. If everyone simultaneously saw a message along the lines of “I AM GOD” in the stars, in a language they could read–including illiterates–that’d be more convincing, and still within the powers of an omnipotent being, who could presumably manipulate the light on the way to our eyes, and who could implant temporary literacy skills to the illiterate without interfering with free will. That would prove the omnipotent part to my satisfaction–which is to say, at that point I’d consider omnipotence the likeliest explanation. Subsequent events might disprove that theory. Omniscience? If a being is omnipotent, I’d let this one slide. Same with omnipresence. But omnibenevolence: I cannot imagine what evidence of omnibenevolence would look like for an omnipotent entity in our universe. I allow room that such evidence might exist, because obviously my imagination is limited; but I honestly cannot imagine it. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/57 "2011-10-25T19:32:41Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > If He would re-arrange a bunch of stars to spell out “I exist” for all the world to witness. That might do it. Nope. Star Trek’s Q could do that — or anything — with a snap of the fingers. If the entire population of the Earth suddenly was suffering the torments of hell for eternity, it would be more likely that the entitity is the Abrahamic god, though even then not conclusively. Either way, any worshipping on my part would only be an attempt to placate the dipstick. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/58 "2011-10-25T19:37:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > **Believe in _what_,** _exactly_? I can see how there are _some_ definitions of god (“really powerful being with superpowers”, “energy being that exists in a higher dimension” etc) that I could be persuaded, with ample physical evidence, to believe existed. But you’ll _never_ get me to believe in the standard monotheist god, because that concept is completely nebulous and incoherent. I would have to not be myself to believe in that. I’d have to be severely brain-damaged, actually. > > And even if you _did_ get me to _believe_ in the existence of the “really powerful being etc” version, you’d _never_ get me to _worship_ (without torture or mind control), so there’s that… OK, fess up…who recently showed MrDibble the italics capability? mmm ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/59 "2011-10-25T19:44:34Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > Either way, any worshipping on my part would only be an attempt to placate the dipstick. As is for most religionists, I suspect. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/60 "2011-10-25T19:55:26Z")
I’ll throw in a twist. Aliens show up. They show us all marvels like a faster than light drive, but they won’t share the technology because “we’re not ready”. Okay. Then they mention God, and proof of such an entity but they decline to share it because it requires technology and, of course, “we’re not ready”. Do you , the Atheist ™, buy their story? Are you at least intrigued, or are you dismissing them out-of-hand? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712.md?page=4)