# Atheists: What would it take for you to believe? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 25, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712 "2011-10-25T04:11:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/81 "2011-10-26T01:42:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You don’t believe God exists but you hold him responsible for the state of the world? How do you fight something that doesn’t exist? I meant if it was real it should be fought against rather than worshiped. I would only hold him responsible if he existed, the world we live in is all the proof i need that an all loving all powerful god does not exist. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/82 "2011-10-26T02:25:11Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Can I ask what this reveals and why it is significant? That Americans are cute when they get their atheism on. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/83 "2011-10-26T02:29:54Z")
_Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic._ --Arthur C. Clarke A devout atheist would assume that anything presented as “proof” of a god could be simulated by some culture that is unimaginably more advanced than us. A really orthodox atheist doesn’t merely not believe in a god, an atheist believes there is no god, and furthermore believes that there _can’t_ be a god because the whole concept is just the product of mass imagination. I suppose that early humans would have worshiped me as a god if I showed up with a gun and an iPod. _Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology._ --Larry Niven On the other hand, just as a point of contrast, true believers aren’t swayed from their faith, regardless of a persistent lack of scientific evidence. Many scientific phenomena that are well understood are sometimes pointed to as being proof of a god (i.e., Intelligent Design). An interesting counterpoint to the OP might be the question, “If you believe in God, what would it take for you to lose your faith?” ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/84 "2011-10-26T02:30:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Or advanced technology. Holograms, brain implants, or maybe we’re all in a simulation and the “miracle” is just someone fiddling with a graphics program. > > If we are all minds in a simulation, is the alien college student running the simulation a god? If all we have access to is the inside of the simulation, and are never given a view outside or told w are in a simulation, then yes, because it would be capable of doing things that refute naturalism. **Anything that can refute naturalism is a deity.** However if, tomorrow, something rearranges the stars to spell out “Grant season is upon us. You have thirty years to send a person to Mars or you will get shut down.” then that would refute the hypothesis “We are not living in a simulation.” which is weaker/less interesting because it implies naturalism is valid for whoever built the simulation. So, as in Star Trek or Clarke’s writings, it’s possible for something sufficiently advanced to pose as a deity. However, and this is the key, _ **we are no longer Neolithic tribesmen. We know things about the Universe that seem fairly fundamental, namely General Relativity and Quantum Electrodynamics. Fully refuting, as opposed to refining, those is most likely physically impossible unless you actually are a deity.** _ ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/85 "2011-10-26T02:37:11Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Can I ask what this reveals and why it is significant? The statement you are asking about is the equivalent of, “The atheist doth protest too much, methinks.” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/86 "2011-10-26T02:43:47Z")
I can’t think of anything you could show me in life that would convince me. If I were to be shown something seemingly godlike, though, I wouldn’t assume aliens. Aliens are extremely improbable. I’d think I was having a delusion caused by mental illness or brain trauma, which is quite common. A mild strike or tumor is a lot more likely than aliens. If I arrive at the Pearly Gates after death, then I’ll believe. ---
**Author:** ![DaveBfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DaveBfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaveBfd)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/87 "2011-10-26T03:01:56Z")
> [@Scissorjack](#): > > That Americans are cute when they get their atheism on. I disagree. you ignored all the other relevant comments and only replied to that one. Its because they grew up in a Christian society. If they grew up in a Muslim society they would argue about mohammed and his God (dont bother correcting..). If they grew up in India they would argue against those Gods. In any case, they dont believe in any. Christians dont care about their non beliefs in anything but Christianity because they share the same opinion about the rest. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/88 "2011-10-26T03:06:54Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > If I arrive at the Pearly Gates after death, then I’ll believe. How will you know you’re dead? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/89 "2011-10-26T04:57:35Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > If I arrive at the Pearly Gates after death, then I’ll believe. > [@CookingWithGas](#): > > How will you know you’re dead? And an afterlife doesn’t require a god of any kind. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/90 "2011-10-26T06:02:54Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I can’t think of anything you could show me in life that would convince me. > > If I were to be shown something seemingly godlike, though, I wouldn’t assume aliens. Aliens are extremely improbable. I’d think I was having a delusion caused by mental illness or brain trauma, which is quite common. A mild strike or tumor is a lot more likely than aliens. > > If I arrive at the Pearly Gates after death, then I’ll believe. The problem being that once you find out that any level of manipulation of your reality is possible, you cant really trust any of your previous experiences or understanding. So attempting to decide what is ‘most possible’ becomes extremely problematic. FWIW, my understanding of mental health etc makes this level of delusion rather improbable with our current understanding, but of course that could be part of the delusion etc etc. If everyone else was telling me I was delusional Id have to consider it of course, but that possibility would presumably be comparatively easy to eliminate. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/91 "2011-10-26T06:22:14Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > The statement you are asking about is the equivalent of, “The atheist doth protest too much, methinks.” Yeah, I think there is a lot of disappointmen and resentment at the God Of Sunday School for not existing; it goes beyond accepting an untruth to outright antagonism: “but I was promised peace and love and eternal life and I \* didn’t get any!”\* ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/92 "2011-10-26T07:00:53Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > OK, fess up…who recently showed MrDibble the Oh, there’s nothing _recent_ about my use of italics for emphasis. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/93 "2011-10-26T07:01:14Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > The statement you are asking about is the equivalent of, “The atheist doth protest too much, methinks.” We’ll stop protesting when the religious get their religion out of politics. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/94 "2011-10-26T07:07:12Z")
> [@Scissorjack](#): > > Yeah, I think there is a lot of disappointmen and resentment at the God Of Sunday School for not existing; it goes beyond accepting an untruth to outright antagonism: “but I was promised peace and love and eternal life and I \* didn’t get any!”\* What about us “capital A” atheists who weren’t brought up in a Christian household or Sunday School, or a majority Christian community? And who aren’t American? And whose first dabblings with religion at all was Hare Krishna and Wicca? What are we resentful of? :rolleyes: This is just a version of the “angry atheist” argument, and it’s bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/95 "2011-10-26T07:26:00Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > But it is different. it is a technological society demonstrably more advanced than us telling us they have information but they are withholding for purposes “unknown”. > > They show us FTL drive but withold the tech, you seem to accept that, but you seem to assume they’d lie about “god”. Wouldn’t it be unwise to anthropomorphisize (I’m sure I’m butchering that word) alien behaviour? I don’t “accept” that they withhold the FTL tech. I mean, I wouldn’t (and probably couldn’t) force them to give it to me, but I’d think they’re dicks for holding back, and the line about “You’re not ready to understand it,” would make me highly suspicious that there were shenanigans afoot. When they try the same line about their God, I’d consider it shenanigans confirmed. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/96 "2011-10-26T08:08:08Z")
Evidence of supernatural ability would establish bona fides. A solid interview, not necessarily with myself, could indicate what sort of God He was. More extravagant claims would require better evidence. I would hope that He would at least let me take notes. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/97 "2011-10-26T12:18:10Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t “accept” that they withhold the FTL tech. I mean, I wouldn’t (and probably couldn’t) force them to give it to me, but I’d think they’re dicks for holding back, and the line about “You’re not ready to understand it,” would make me highly suspicious that there were shenanigans afoot. When they try the same line about their God, I’d consider it shenanigans confirmed. I said “you’re not ready for it”, not “you wouldn’t understand it”. Something like Klaatu not wanting humans in interstellar space until we “grow up”. They won’t give us FTL because they don’t trust us with it. It’s Dad keeping the car keys from us. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/98 "2011-10-26T12:28:52Z")
I think Atheists want truth (or facts) not just belief. Facts(or truth) does away with faith. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/99 "2011-10-26T12:57:35Z")
It wouldn’t really be that hard. Just let me feel that love that’s supposed to be so wonderful and amazing. Give me a burst of the faith and power. Just kick it up a notch for a bit and I’m sure I’ll be convinced. That’s all I’ve ever asked. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/100 "2011-10-26T13:03:59Z")
> [@Scissorjack](#): > > That Americans are cute when they get their atheism on. Uh, what? I now would like to know why you have introduced nationality into this discussion and what you think is significant about said nationality. I think that this board has a plurality (majority?) of American posters, so it is not surprising that Americans post to it; and that many of these posters have grown up in a culture where most believers come from the Abrahamic mythos. As a result, you get a lot of American atheists talking about the religion they are most familiar with. I ask in all seriousness: what is revealing about your first comment that > [@](#): > > I think it’s pretty revealing that most capital Atheists seem to default to not believing in Yahweh. and your quote about Americans? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712.md?page=6)