# Atheists: What would it take for you to believe? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 25, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712 "2011-10-25T04:11:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/101 "2011-10-26T13:21:39Z")
> [@Scissorjack](#): > > Yeah, I think there is a lot of disappointmen and resentment at the God Of Sunday School for not existing; it goes beyond accepting an untruth to outright antagonism: “but I was promised peace and love and eternal life and I \* didn’t get any!”\* I am an American of Hindu background. Am I also throwing an anti-Sunday school tantrum? Which god(s) is/are it appropriate to discuss in a forum like this? ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/102 "2011-10-26T14:48:26Z")
> [@Scissorjack](#): > > That Americans are cute when they get their atheism on. I am not an American and neither do I live in the United States. Nor am I cute. Nor is nationality relevant to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/103 "2011-10-26T15:30:32Z")
I think if I legitimately had a vision from God that I couldn’t explain through any other means, it might get me to believe. But it wouldn’t get me any closer to praying. That’s my biggest problem right there. It’s not the existence of God that’s the issue. It’s that this Supreme Being actually desires for me to pray to him. Why? What kind of God worthy of prayer would want me to do that anywhere from once to five times a day, plus before and after every meal, hand washing and bathroom visit? Frankly, if God were real and showed himself to me that would simplify the whole process because I’d be able to ask him that question myself. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/104 "2011-10-26T16:41:28Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > I said “you’re not ready for it”, not “you wouldn’t understand it”. Something like Klaatu not wanting humans in interstellar space until we “grow up”. They won’t give us FTL because they don’t trust us with it. It’s Dad keeping the car keys from us. I don’t know about you, but I’d be looking for cookbooks. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/105 "2011-10-26T17:38:05Z")
This question comes up from time to time. A while back, [in this thread,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=445766) I wrote the following response: If the following happened: (1) A being appeared out of thin air in the middle of some live televised public event. Appearing halfway between home base and the pitcher’s mound in the middle of a world series game would be a good way to do it (2) This being displayed supernatural powers (many possibilities discussed already upthread) (3) This being was incredibly charismatic. People were drawn to this being, and reported great happiness at being around this being. Everyone liked it. It was funny and kind and caring. But people who had been exposed to this being did not (at least apparently) become mind-controlled robots… debate would still rage, even among those who had been directly exposed to this being’s Apparent Radiant Goodness as to the exact nature of this being (4) After hearing many people I trusted claim that praying to this being would result in prayers being answered, I prayed to this being, and was answered. That is, I assumed a “prayer-ish” mindset, and then felt that I was communicating with another being… and clear two-way communicating took place. I kind of envision the being as being like some kind of super-therapist… not removing free will by telling me what to do at every moment, and in fact refusing to do so, but rephrasing situations and pointing things out that clarified my own thoughts on the topic, and how I could use my own capabilities and tendencies (which the being knew better than I) to solve these issues (5) When asked who the being was and why it had only now appeared, it claimed to be God, and showed people (via magic) the creation of the universe, and explained why it had only now appeared. (6) (here’s the key point) All of the above MADE THE WORLD AND MY LIFE BETTER. The advice that this being gave caused the people of the world to love one another at least somewhat more. The influence of this being was clearly benevolent… and I don’t mean into some kind of theocratic god-worshiping world of clones who do nothing but sing hymns morning and night. I mean, the world was actually better… people were happier, crime was down, disease was down, etc. More people were good and fewer people were evil and there was more happiness and more productive fulfillment of the potential for human greatness. Basically, I want Aslan to come back If all of the above happened and continued for long enough that I was certain I wasn’t dreaming, I see no reason why it would be more logical to define that being as either hallucination or super-advanced-alien than “God”. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/106 "2011-10-26T18:07:40Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > . . . If all of the above happened and continued for long enough that I was certain I wasn’t dreaming, I see no reason why it would be more logical to define that being as either hallucination or super-advanced-alien than “God”. Except, of course, that it hasn’t happened and cannot happen, except in the imagination, where gods, hallucinations and space aliens on Earth exist. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/107 "2011-10-26T18:10:25Z")
> [@AaronX](#): > > That’s another thing. If you ignore the religious aspect of it, how can you tell “god” from really advanced aliens? I don’t think this matters to me at all. If a being shows up and announces itself to the world using some impressive feat like rearranging the stars to spell out a message in different languages, then proceeds to tell me that he’s the god of some religion and lays down the commandments and tells me to worship him or experience some really bad outcome, I’m in. I clearly exist at his pleasure at that point, and the question of whether or not he’s _actually_ omniscient or just so much more powerful that I can’t tell the difference doesn’t seem particularly relevant. You well-principled atheists who refuse to worship on the grounds that he might not actually be god enjoy your time in the lake of fire (or whatever ET-god’s analog is). ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/108 "2011-10-26T18:15:18Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I don’t think this matters to me at all. > > If a being shows up and announces itself to the world using some impressive feat like rearranging the stars to spell out a message in different languages, then proceeds to tell me that he’s the god of some religion and lays down the commandments and tells me to worship him or experience some really bad outcome, I’m in. I clearly exist at his pleasure at that point, and the question of whether or not he’s _actually_ omniscient or just so much more powerful that I can’t tell the difference doesn’t seem particularly relevant. > > You well-principled atheists who refuse to worship on the grounds that he might not actually be god enjoy your time in the lake of fire (or whatever ET-god’s analog is). I concur, more or less. Say a big hand comes out of the sky during some war, disarms the combatants, and intones in divine communication of some sort: “Now cut that out!” If this happens, I’m on board. No practical reason not to be. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/109 "2011-10-26T18:15:28Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > Except, of course, that it hasn’t happened and cannot happen, except in the imagination, where gods, hallucinations and space aliens on Earth exist. Uhhh… what’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/110 "2011-10-26T18:45:47Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Uhhh… what’s your point? Just that coming up with a satisfactory personal proof of a god or God would involve as many or almost as many hoops — or the same hoops — as proof of a god or God generally. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/111 "2011-10-26T19:03:32Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > Just that coming up with a satisfactory personal proof of a god or God would involve as many or almost as many hoops — or the same hoops — as proof of a god or God generally. Boy, now I’m really lost. The thread asked what it would take for me to believe in (and, I guess, implicilty, start worshiping) God (in this case a full-on creator-of-the-universe loves-us-all Christian-style God, even if not specifically Jehova, as opposed to a minor supernatural deity). I agree that it would take a fairly serious collection of things happening, which I described. Obviously, I don’t think it at all likely that any or all of those things are going to happen any time soon… ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/112 "2011-10-26T19:10:47Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Boy, now I’m really lost. . . . Obviously, I don’t think it at all likely that any or all of those things are going to happen any time soon… I shouldn’t have made it sound like it’s your post only that I meant, but all the proofs in the thread. But yeah, considering the title and meaning of the thread, my post was goofy. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/113 "2011-10-26T23:09:27Z")
> [@AaronX](#): > > “My child, I am real. What would you have me do for you to believe?” I don’t know. But you should be able to figure that out. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/114 "2011-10-26T23:32:16Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I don’t think this matters to me at all. > > If a being shows up and announces itself to the world using some impressive feat like rearranging the stars to spell out a message in different languages, then proceeds to tell me that he’s the god of some religion and lays down the commandments and tells me to worship him or experience some really bad outcome, I’m in. I clearly exist at his pleasure at that point, and the question of whether or not he’s _actually_ omniscient or just so much more powerful that I can’t tell the difference doesn’t seem particularly relevant. > > You well-principled atheists who refuse to worship on the grounds that he might not actually be god enjoy your time in the lake of fire (or whatever ET-god’s analog is). You assume that you’re actually capable of pleasing the god in question. Inside my own head I am _never_ going to anything but be hostile to anything that demands my worship, and a god is going to _know_ that. So all that pretending to worship him would do is force me to humiliate myself, and get me tossed into the lake of fire _anyway_. And that assumes that the god in question doesn’t just toss all of us into the lake of fire for fun regardless of what we do. A god who demands worship and obedience is a monster, and can be expected to act like a monster. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/115 "2011-10-26T23:58:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A god who demands worship and obedience is a monster, and can be expected to act like a monster. Agreed. Any being that demands, enjoys, accepts, or even tolerates being worshipped is not a good being. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/116 "2011-10-27T00:37:30Z")
> [@Scissorjack](#): > > That Americans are cute when they get their atheism on. Why don’t you find the courage to say what you mean directly rather than making these passive aggressive comments that you then don’t support? ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/117 "2011-10-27T12:48:17Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I don’t know about you, but I’d be looking for cookbooks. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/118 "2011-10-27T22:20:31Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Agreed. Any being that demands, enjoys, accepts, or even tolerates being worshipped is not a good being. I think about this as analogous to the way we treat domesticated animals. We train dogs to follow orders, to get food from us, to seek our approval. Are dog-owners evil beings? Any being capable of the powers here would be to us as we are to dogs (or more so). I think that if something like that asks/tells you to do something, you maybe give it the benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/119 "2011-10-27T23:05:15Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Any being capable of the powers here would be to us as we are to dogs (or more so). There is nothing that would be to us as we are to dogs, because we are not dogs. > [@](#): > > I think that if something like that asks/tells you to do something, you maybe give it the benefit of the doubt. And I think anyone who would play the role of Abraham is a dangerous fool. Being powerful does not mean you can’t be a sick fuck. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/120 "2011-10-27T23:31:12Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Agreed. Any being that demands, enjoys, accepts, or even tolerates being worshipped is not a good being. Honestly, if it runs the fricking universe, and makes it abundantly clear that it does so with utter impunity, ethics really don’t enter into it. If the Big Guy made his presence utterly, physically known (as opposed to evidencing himself in some oblique writings from the ancient Eastern Mediterranean ), you bet your ass I’d fall in step. It’s the only rational thing to do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712.md?page=7)