# Atheists: What would it take for you to believe? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 25, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712 "2011-10-25T04:11:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/121 "2011-10-27T23:51:07Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I think about this as analogous to the way we treat domesticated animals. We train dogs to follow orders, to get food from us, to seek our approval. Are dog-owners evil beings? Many are. Anyway, we did not create dogs then make them too stupid to understand our motives, then condemn them for not understanding and not worshipping us for making them less intelligent. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/122 "2011-10-28T00:55:59Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > Honestly, if it runs the fricking universe, and makes it abundantly clear that it does so with utter impunity, ethics really don’t enter into it. If the Big Guy made his presence utterly, physically known (as opposed to evidencing himself in some oblique writings from the ancient Eastern Mediterranean ), you bet your ass I’d fall in step. It’s the only rational thing to do. But how do you tell the guy who “runs the fricking universe”, from someone who can fake it to your satisfaction? I would likely “fall in step”, but I’d just be faking it. Just to avoid being killed by it. I wouldn’t be giving my life over to it, as “fundy” converts are wont to do. Where’s the distinction? ETA: How do you distinguish yourself from those who do not believe, yet follow. And I’m sorta quoting the NT, in the above. Deal with it, Fundies. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/123 "2011-10-28T01:22:05Z")
The only way I’d be sure that God exists is if I were God. So… he’d have to make me God, I guess… ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/124 "2011-10-28T01:32:46Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > The only way I’d be sure that God exists is if I were God. So… he’d have to make me God, I guess… But then you’d be Charles de Gaulle. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/125 "2011-10-28T01:41:55Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > But then you’d be Charles de Gaulle. Sorry, but could you explain this to me? ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/126 "2011-10-28T04:40:26Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Sorry, but could you explain this to me? Winston Churchill was supposed to have said about Charles de Gaulle, “There but for the grace of God goes God.” But he was supposed to have said it about others as well, so who knows. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/127 "2011-10-28T05:57:28Z")
I lit of people are saying (with good reason) it would be tough to make them believe. That’s just what I would say to this being – “Make Me!” – as a challenge. Any God worth the title can simply reach into my brain and _make me believe_. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/128 "2011-10-28T12:22:01Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I lit of people are saying (with good reason) it would be tough to make them believe. > > That’s just what I would say to this being – “Make Me!” – as a challenge. Any God worth the title can simply reach into my brain and _make me believe_. I like this answer. In fact, I am changing my answer to this. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/129 "2011-10-28T14:03:21Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > But how do you tell the guy who “runs the fricking universe”, from someone who can fake it to your satisfaction? Dribbling Jupiter like a basketball would probably do. If that’s faking, it’s close enough. As far as sincerity of belief is concerned…eh, who knows? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/130 "2011-10-28T14:21:20Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I think about this as analogous to the way we treat domesticated animals. We train dogs to follow orders, to get food from us, to seek our approval. Are dog-owners evil beings? I think Kenm handled this one. We can’t read our dogs’ minds and we don’t demand that they conceive of us in any particular way and threaten to punish them if they don’t. > [@](#): > > Any being capable of the powers here would be to us as we are to dogs (or more so). I think that if something like that asks/tells you to do something, you maybe give it the benefit of the doubt. > [@StusBlues](#): > > Honestly, if it runs the fricking universe, and makes it abundantly clear that it does so with utter impunity, ethics really don’t enter into it. If the Big Guy made his presence utterly, physically known (as opposed to evidencing himself in some oblique writings from the ancient Eastern Mediterranean ), you bet your ass I’d fall in step. It’s the only rational thing to do. So, what are we talking about here? If a being appears and proves that he has the powers to make me believe he has powers, then I will believe he has powers. But when you ask me, “What will it take for you to _believe_ in god?,” aren’t you asking something more than that? Aren’t you asking what it will take for me to accept that this power-laden being is benevolent and good and loves me and is worthy of my admiration and adoration and worship? Because if that’s not what you’re asking, then I’m not sure what the point is. If all you get is an admission that a sufficiently powered being may in theory be capable of bending me to his or her will, then what have you got? ---
**Author:** ![Galileo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85e7bf/32.png) [@Galileo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/131 "2011-10-28T14:57:33Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > That’s just what I would say to this being – “Make Me!” – as a challenge. Any God worth the title can simply reach into my brain and _make me believe_. What is this “being” that you are addressing? How are you perceiving it? How are you communicating with it? And why should it respond to your challenge? What does it mean when you say “any God worth the title”? What qualities must God have to be God? And who determines what those qualities are? Anyway, some people believe that God’s existence is self-evident. In other words, they believe because they believe, and how can you not believe? So, in some ways, as far as they are concerned, God already made them believe. But, why some and not others? The ways of God are mysterious, right? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/132 "2011-10-28T17:38:30Z")
> [@Galileo](#): > > What is this “being” that you are addressing? > How are you perceiving it? > How are you communicating with it? And why should it respond to your challenge? > What does it mean when you say “any God worth the title”? What qualities must God have to be God? And who determines what those qualities are? > > Anyway, some people believe that God’s existence is self-evident. In other words, they believe because they believe, and how can you not believe? So, in some ways, as far as they are concerned, God already made them believe. But, why some and not others? The ways of God are mysterious, right? :dubious: The being described in the OP – a voice in my head. Maybe, probably, a hallucination. I don’t really care why others believe or don’t believe. I was responding to the questions in the OP. It’s hard to imagine anything that a God could say or do to make me believe that the god was real instead of some delusion. So if the God wants me to believe, then the god can make me believe in the most literal sense. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85e7bf/32.png) [@Galileo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/133 "2011-10-28T19:58:17Z")
Sorry, I originally had a preamble to my questions that made it clearer that it’s not your post that I have a problem with – it’s the question “What would it take for you to believe in God?” I was just addressing the incoherency of the concept “God”. As you point out, it’s probably a hallucination or delusion. What would it take to reinterpret the experience as compelling evidence for God? It depends on what your concept of God is. One thing that I do disagree with in your post is the relevance of the claim that any God worth the title can simply reach into your brain and make you believe. You then follow this with a statement in your next post: > [@](#): > > So if the God wants me to believe, then the god can make me believe in the most literal sense. That’s a big “if”. It just seems to me an atheist shouldn’t make claims about what God can do. Leave that to the theists. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/134 "2011-10-28T21:42:55Z")
> [@Galileo](#): > > …One thing that I do disagree with in your post is the relevance of the claim that any God worth the title can simply reach into your brain and make you believe. You then follow this with a statement in your next post:That’s a big “if”. > > It just seems to me an atheist shouldn’t make claims about what God can do. Leave that to the theists. Much as this makes sense, I don’t see how it’s possible to answer the OP’s question without discussing some powers that a god would have to demonstrate in order to be convincing. If you can suggest some demonstration that couldn’t be the result of my own delusion, I’m all ears. Of course, some alien being could also cause me to falsely believe in it’s godhood as well, but the difference is that I would in fact be convinced, which is what the OP was asking for. Any other act would more likely leave me suspecting my own sanity rather than believing in a god. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/135 "2011-10-28T22:17:32Z")
I have a question for everyone who would be holding out on the worship if it was BIG G God. How about if it was a smaller god? Say you get approached by a small god that can barely make a flicker of light who says that it can ensure that you will never go into a bathroom, or equivalent, and find that there is no toilet paper there. And all you have to do is sing this little hymn of praise every time you take a shower. It doesn’t particularly need an answer now. It just makes its offer politely and leaves. You find that it’s a catchy little tune and that you hear it as an earworm every time you’re near a shower or toilet. So it’s possible that the little shiner might be able to do it. Would you sing along? ---
**Author:** ![Galileo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85e7bf/32.png) [@Galileo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/136 "2011-10-28T22:58:43Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Much as this makes sense, I don’t see how it’s possible to answer the OP’s question without discussing some powers that a god would have to demonstrate in order to be convincing. Well, you don’t have to answer the OP’s question, do you? 😉 And, you definitely don’t have to answer questions that are meaningless. Here is the question in the OP: > [@AaronX](#): > > Suppose one day you have a vision, and it goes something like, “My child, I am real. What would you have me do for you to believe?” So, I hear a voice. The voice is real in the sense that I hear it. And, the voice is asking me a question. Why? Does the voice not know the answer? And what does it mean “to believe” in … what? Is this some kind of word game or puzzle? Actually, I agree with the first verse of John’s Gospel: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was without meaning, and the Word was %Y&j42.” Or something like that. > [@](#): > > If you can suggest some demonstration that couldn’t be the result of my own delusion, I’m all ears. Well, my inclination is to say “I can’t”, but first I’ll ask: Some demonstration of what? I think that it’s time to stop discussing God-belief unless those who believe in God can formulate a coherent meaning of “God”. FWIW, I definitely believe in that thing that has the … y’know … the thing, and that does the … uh … well, you know — the THING!!! Also, although it seems like a good idea to ask “Which God do you expect me to believe in?”, I think it’s better to ask: “What do you mean by ‘God’, and how did you arrive at that conclusion?” If the person can’t answer that question, then it’s better to discuss something else. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/137 "2011-10-28T23:03:19Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > I have a question for everyone who would be holding out on the worship if it was BIG G God. How about if it was a smaller god? > > Say you get approached by a small god that can barely make a flicker of light who says that it can ensure that you will never go into a bathroom, or equivalent, and find that there is no toilet paper there. And all you have to do is sing this little hymn of praise every time you take a shower. > > It doesn’t particularly need an answer now. It just makes its offer politely and leaves. You find that it’s a catchy little tune and that you hear it as an earworm every time you’re near a shower or toilet. So it’s possible that the little shiner might be able to do it. Would you sing along? It’s not about the size or power of the god. It’s about what a god could do to demonstrate godhood, something that couldn’t be a product of our own delusions. I had not considered the evidence being powers that the god would bestow upon me, to use as I wish in the future. And that’s a very good example, and I’ll accept it. I’ll have to think some about what would be the minimum power needed, but it would surely need to be more than never again encountering a restroom without toilet paper. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/138 "2011-10-28T23:38:18Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > . . . it would surely need to be more than never again encountering a restroom without toilet paper. But the the level of belief you’d need to show is small, too. As a small god, it only needs you to believe that it can to that tiny little trick. You’re going to be hearing the tune anyway, all you have to do is sing along. What more do you want? Never ending dental floss? You’d have to sing at a crossroads for that. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/139 "2011-10-28T23:53:39Z")
I don’t think belief is incremental. You either do or you don’t. Besides, never encountering an empty toilet paper roll could be coincidence, and if I found one I could convince myself that I forgot the prayer last time – so I couldn’t be certain. ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712/140 "2011-10-29T00:07:49Z")
Nothing could or would make me believe, sorry, I can’t even contemplate the lack of logical reasoning skills required to believe in, as George Carlin so eloquently put it; [Quote=George Carlin] Religion has convinced people that there’s an invisible man…living in the sky, who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn’t want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer and burn and scream until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you and he needs money." [/quote] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-it-take-for-you-to-believe/600712.md?page=8)