# Atheists. What would you accept as evidence of a divine creator? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 27, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698 "2009-02-27T18:46:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/1 "2009-02-27T18:46:17Z")
Atheists often claim that there is “zero evidence” that a God, or divine creator, exists. I’m just wondering what these types of people would accept as evidence? Let’s define the divine entity in question as existing outside of the universe, the creator of the universe and everything in it, having absolute power and control over the universe and everything in it… something pretty similar to the Abrahamic God. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/2 "2009-02-27T18:47:02Z")
I’d accept an actual divine creator. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/3 "2009-02-27T18:50:56Z")
Do something. A big showy something that would be impossible to deny. Without that ,no god. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/4 "2009-02-27T18:51:33Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Do something. A big showy something that would be impossible to deny. Without that ,no god. Can you give an example of what a big showy thing would look like? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/5 "2009-02-27T18:53:17Z")
Interesting question. Objectively speaking, there can’t be evidence that a _particular_ god created this _particular_ universe - even if a god popped up that had the capability to do so, they could demonstrate the capability, but they could not demonstrate that they actually had done so, any more than I can demonstrate that I’m the guy who made a particular ham sandwich, based just on the ability to do so. Once you demonstrate the existence of one uber-powerful entity, you have pretty much inevitably opened the door to the existence of others, any of which could be claiming credit for the actions of others - or for the natural action of a universe that popped into existence on its own. And that’s not even mentioning the fact that such a diety could alter the evidence and/or our perceptions to fabricate evidence that they had a hand in it, when in actuality it wasn’t so. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/6 "2009-02-27T18:57:23Z")
I think we did this before, but the search mechanism is dieing on me. Anyway, I’d consider a bi-weekly rearrangement of the visible stars into a clearly readable message stating “Hello, I did this. Me. The Creator of the universe.” relatively convincing. It won’t **prove** anything, but at least we’d have to seriously consider beings with God-like powers to be plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/7 "2009-02-27T19:02:53Z")
oh, and I forgot: The traditional Abrahamic God could easily make everybody convinced he existed without doing anything else. He could just “make it so”. If he wanted to. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/8 "2009-02-27T19:03:23Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Interesting question. Objectively speaking, there can’t be evidence that a _particular_ god created this _particular_ universe - even if a god popped up that had the capability to do so, they could demonstrate the capability, but they could not demonstrate that they actually had done so, any more than I can demonstrate that I’m the guy who made a particular ham sandwich, based just on the ability to do so. > > Once you demonstrate the existence of one uber-powerful entity, you have pretty much inevitably opened the door to the existence of others, any of which could be claiming credit for the actions of others - or for the natural action of a universe that popped into existence on its own. And that’s not even mentioning the fact that such a diety could alter the evidence and/or our perceptions to fabricate evidence that they had a hand in it, when in actuality it wasn’t so. Would proof of the existence of ‘gods’ change your view about God? What if you met Satan in person, would that have you believe in God? ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/9 "2009-02-27T19:04:27Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > oh, and I forgot: > > The traditional Abrahamic God could easily make everybody convinced he existed without doing anything else. He could just “make it so”. If he wanted to. Without robbing us of free will in the process? ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/10 "2009-02-27T19:06:49Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Without robbing us of free will in the process? We don’t have absolutely free will anyway. Also, I found the other thread: [Scientific evidence of God's existence - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=490074) ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/11 "2009-02-27T19:07:36Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Atheists often claim that there is “zero evidence” that a God, or divine creator, exists. > > I’m just wondering what these types of people would accept as evidence? > > Let’s define the divine entity in question as existing outside of the universe, the creator of the universe and everything in it, having absolute power and control over the universe and everything in it.. something pretty similar to the Abrahamic God. Nothing. There is absolutely no way for me to distinguish this being from a finitely-powerful-but-more-powerful-than-I-can-imagine being who is not god. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/12 "2009-02-27T19:07:37Z")
How would we see into the other universe? ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/13 "2009-02-27T19:08:16Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > We don’t have absolutely free will anyway. > > Also, I found the other thread: [Scientific evidence of God's existence - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=490074) Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/14 "2009-02-27T19:10:56Z")
Well if it is something similar to the Abrahamic God, I’d settle for something on par with the outrageous claims the Bible states others could do with His help, of course. If anyone could actually duplicate any of these supernatural miracle stories, that would definitely do it for me. Actually, it doesn’t even have to be on par with Moses parting the Red sea, or the three men in Daniel that are put in a fiery oven, but come out unharmed because of their faith. I’d settle for a something much simpler. Fix my car with a prayer. That’ll work. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/15 "2009-02-27T19:13:17Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Can you give an example of what a big showy thing would look like? I am not god. But if I were the big honcho, I would have no problem coming up with something. If god wants people to believe, it is his fault that they do not. He could run a huge firery message in the sky that spells out" god is here". Brought to you by Carl Jrs. But to think he wants to hide and expect you to believe without proof is a god is just too silly to accept. Why would such a powerful ,busy god be invovled in such a silly game? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/16 "2009-02-27T19:24:27Z")
Whether or not I’m an atheist at this stage is iffy, but I guess this is a datapoint that it fits: I can’t think of any potential convincing evidence. I mean, if a god just appears before me, what’s a more plausible explanation: a) this thing created the universe, or b) I’m losing my mind? I doubt there’d be any way to conclusively prove the difference to yourself in that situation anyway. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/17 "2009-02-27T19:25:47Z")
One event wouldn’t do it. That could be the result of hallucination or hoax. It would have to be a series of repeatable events that could be observed and studied. Something that clearly violates causality would do: Stars that are lightyears apart simultaneously moving to spell out a message in English would be a good place to start. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/18 "2009-02-27T19:28:40Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > Something that clearly violates causality would do: Stars that are lightyears apart simultaneously moving to spell out a message in English would be a good place to start. Well, sure, but don’t you think toast being scorched into the image of a guy with a beard is much more efficient use of inexhaustible divine power? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/19 "2009-02-27T19:28:56Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Would proof of the existence of ‘gods’ change your view about God? Would proof of the existence of Bilbo change your view about Rambo? If gods with great supernatural power turned up, but didn’t claim to be “God”, that’s not evidence that the (non-appearing) “God” exists. However, I _would_ be convinced that other planes existed for such dieties to hide in, which I currently do not believe. So that would increase the probablity slightly. From zero belief to zero belief-with-a tiny-bit-less-certainty. Though if the other gods turned out to be a _contradictory_ pantheon, though, such as the norse pantheon, I would believe in God even less; this universe was only created once, after all. If a dude who claimed to be God himself turned up, I’d run for cover. He is generally portrayed as being tempermental and judgemental, with no fondness for those who did not believe without reason, and so my best bet would be to stay as far from him as possible - if he let me. > [@kanicbird](#): > > What if you met Satan in person, would that have you believe in God? No; the existence of an evil liar doesn’t imply the existence of a dominating smiter. Heck, even if Satan _said_ God existed, why should I believe him? He’s an evil liar! Remember, this thread is about what _can be known_. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/20 "2009-02-27T19:30:27Z")
Here’s a related question for all the theists: What evidence would make you give up your current faith and believe in a different god? If the stars suddenly were to spell out: “I, Tezcatlipoca, have returned! All other religions are a lie! Let the human sacrifices begin!” would that convince you? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698.md?page=2)