# Atheists. What would you accept as evidence of a divine creator? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 27, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698 "2009-02-27T18:46:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/21 "2009-02-27T19:31:45Z")
I also can’t think of any way it could be done that would rule out fakes or delusion. If I saw a being doing things like shift stars to form words, I’d be more inclined to think I was going insane or that we are all in the Matrix than in a God. Both are much more plausible. Although someone running a simulation with us in it might qualify as a “God” by the OP. Even if he’s just an alien computer programmer. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/22 "2009-02-27T19:51:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I also can’t think of any way it could be done that would rule out fakes or delusion. If I saw a being doing things like shift stars to form words, I’d be more inclined to think I was going insane or that we are all in the Matrix than in a God. Both are much more plausible. > > Although someone running a simulation with us in it might qualify as a “God” by the OP. Even if he’s just an alien computer programmer. I think the point about the message in the stars is that **everybody** would be able to see them just by looking up. Which would probably convince you after a while that you’re not just going crazy. As far as a simulator is concerned, from the point of view of the creator, would there be any difference between a god that creates a universe and everything in it, and a programmer creating a simulation that from the inside is indistinguishable from a “real universe”? ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/23 "2009-02-27T19:54:14Z")
"WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE, " in flames, on the side of a mountain might be nice. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/24 "2009-02-27T19:56:39Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > "WE APOLOGIZE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE, " in flames, on the side of a mountain might be nice. “Stick your head in a pig” works for me. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/25 "2009-02-27T19:58:14Z")
I would think a good test for an all knowing, all powerful being would be: Can you think of anything that you could do, within your power, that might be noticable to the average person as supernatural? If he needs advice from the SDMB on how to get noticed then he has already flunked the all knowing part. Perhaps, with enough good suggestions here, he will have the chance to show himself as all powerful. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/26 "2009-02-27T20:22:30Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Without robbing us of free will in the process? I don’t have free will with regards to what I believe is true. Do you? Are there things that you do not believe in, then through an act of will, believe is true? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/27 "2009-02-27T20:29:43Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Without robbing us of free will in the process? If we presume the existence of an omnipotent diety who can harden the hearts of Pharaohs and such (something which never made sense to me, by the way), then by definition we only have what free will He allows to have, i.e. effectively none because it can arbitrarily be taken away at whim. So if the biblical God wants to prove Himself, let Him alter my mind to believe in Him, if He can. Otherwise, fancy tricks like rearranging stars speak to hyper-advanced technology, not divinity. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/28 "2009-02-27T20:40:48Z")
Let’s dispense with the all-knowing part. If I ask a putative god a thousand questions and he gets them all right, it doesn’t prove that he’s all-knowing. It only proves that he answered a thousand questions correctly — and that’s presuming I have the ability to verify his answers are correct. I can ask him a trillion questions about things on Earth, which I _can_ verify, but that wouldn’t prove he’s _all-knowing_, which by definition includes about a trillion googol things _not_ on Earth. What’s the temperature on Mugwug III? God would know. But how do I _know_ that God’s right? As for the all-powerful part, Q from Star Trek would surely be close. If Q showed up and said he made the Earth, would you believe he’s God? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/29 "2009-02-27T21:12:21Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > As for the all-powerful part, Q from Star Trek would surely be close. If Q showed up and said he made the Earth, would you believe he’s God? No. The universe is not so badly designed. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/30 "2009-02-27T21:36:03Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Let’s dispense with the all-knowing part. If I ask a putative god a thousand questions and he gets them all right, it doesn’t prove that he’s all-knowing. It only proves that he answered a thousand questions correctly — **and that’s presuming I have the ability to verify his answers are correct**. Which you don’t; if he’s “all powerful”, he can certainly screw with your mind so you believe whatever he tells you. It’s another aspect of the problem mentioned earlier; how you can’t distinguish a “god who created the universe” from something that’s just really powerful but lying. > [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > I think the point about the message in the stars is that **everybody** would be able to see them just by looking up. Which would probably convince you after a while that you’re not just going crazy. If I’m crazy enough to see stars turn into words, I’m crazy enough to hallucinate people agreeing with me, I’d think. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/31 "2009-02-27T21:38:09Z")
I’d expect the best way for God do prove he exists would simply be to show up. In a universe that had a God, it would sure be expected that every being there would know without question that He exists. So my answer is to show up regularly, sort of like God did to Arthur in _The Holy Grail_. > [@straggler](#): > > Without robbing us of free will in the process? What would his appearance have to do with free will? We’d still have it just as much as we did before his debut. I don’t understand the question. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/32 "2009-02-27T21:55:26Z")
I think I am going to become a polytheist because it is increasingly clear to me that the Universe was designed by a committee. Rob ---
**Author:** ![meanoldman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@meanoldman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meanoldman)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/33 "2009-02-27T22:13:06Z")
If nothing is beyond the power of said god, I’d want to know everything it knows. Understand everything it does. Since anything and everything is possible, make me a god. Then I’d buy it. Otherwise, I’d suspect we were all being conned by very advanced creature(s) of some sort. Technology may or may not play a part in their con job. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/34 "2009-02-27T22:19:37Z")
I can think of many things that would prove there existed something far more powerful than I previously thought existed. I cant think of anything that would ‘prove’ god as such, given we can already hypothesise ways to directly impact our senses and make us think we’re seeing or remembering something that isnt real. I guess with enough power you’d have God for all practical purposes, regardless of the truth. They could make me believe they’re god after all, and Id know no better. Otara ---
**Author:** ![dinoboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dinoboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dinoboy)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/35 "2009-02-27T22:24:14Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > I’d expect the best way for God do prove he exists would simply be to show up. Good idea, O Lord! 🙂 The difficulty with such a question has been pointed out pretty well: How would we be able to distinguish between an advanced technology, or that we’re going crazy (etc.)… and a god (and either is more likely than a supernatural being) I’m with **Ponchacco** above. Atheists\* have pretty clearly established that there is no current evidence supporting a supernatural anything, the less clear part is why theists believe _their_ god the “correct” one? And, along those lines, why do they _not_ believe any of the other gods exist? Understand this alone and you understand much about atheism. - a term I really dislike using… as if I need a term to tell people about everything I don’t believe in or do. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/36 "2009-02-27T22:29:01Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Without robbing us of free will in the process? In theory, all universes are possible. In one of the possible universes, everyone has free will and always makes the right choice. That’s the universe any worthwhile god would have created. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/37 "2009-02-27T22:29:41Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > I think I am going to become a polytheist because it is increasingly clear to me that the Universe was designed by a committee. > > Rob As my ex boss used to say, “I believe in the entire old Norse pantheon. Surely you don’t think all this wonderful complexity could be the result of just _one_ god…” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/38 "2009-02-27T22:36:47Z")
Is this being claiming to be both omniscient and omnipotent? If so, I would ask him (it?), once he’s decided on a course of action, whether he’s able to change his mind. If “yes,” then he’s unable to foresee his own future actions, so he’s not omniscient. If “no,” then mind-changing is something he can’t do, so he’s not omnipotent. There can be no contradictions; therefore, nothing can be omniscient and omnipotent. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/39 "2009-02-27T22:42:46Z")
If an entity of some sort descends from the heavens, looks and/or points directly at Fred Phelps, says “BLASPHEMOR!” and then Phelps spontaneously combusts, along with all his followers…I’ll at least be williing to consider the possibility that said entity is God…or an otherwise Righteous Dude. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698/40 "2009-02-27T22:46:07Z")
There are some very simple thins God could have done to make believing in him more reasonable: 1. Give his word to all his children, not just a small group of people in one part of the world. It should be easy enough to give his word to the ancients of Mexico, China, Hawaii etc. If copies of the Bible were found in on every continent before they were “discovered” I’d more readily buy that it is something special. 2. If God sent his son to die for our sins, couldn’t he have sent other versions to other parts of the world. 3. Why do other groups of ancient people have to wait hundreds or thousands of years to hear the good news? Apparently God _Needs_ his children to worship him, so why not contact everyone rather than a very small population. 4. Surely when God inspires someone to write his words, he could have also inspired them to get it right and have it make sense. You can’t even get out of the first two chapters of Genesis without glaring contradictions. When exactly were man and woman created? What order? When were the stars, animals and the like created? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-what-would-you-accept-as-evidence-of-a-divine-creator/487698.md?page=3)