# Atheists: Why are you so sure of your non-belief? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777 "2010-06-19T15:24:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/181 "2010-06-21T21:20:22Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > For example, it seems to me impossible for there to exist a creator god that is simultaneously omnipotent, omniscient, and good. That really kills any Western notion of a god worthy of worship. Why can’t a good one be worthy of worship while being only ludicrously powerful? I mean, consider a creator-god who needs six whole days to create a universe and then settles in for a day of rest; that’s not omnipotence, but it’s still pretty danged impressive compared to what you or I (or everyone on the planet working together) could do in a week. Why should omnipotence be a “worthy of worship” criterion? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/182 "2010-06-21T21:27:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And there’s no reason at all for you to “suspect” any such thing. Well, like I said in another thread, I had an experience that makes it hard for me not to have at least some faith. > [@](#): > > My opinion; “faith” probably became a survival advantage due to thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of years of believers systematically killing anyone who didn’t praise religion loud enough. Selective breeding in action; we’ve bred ourselves to be insane in a specific way just as we’ve bred some dogs to have long fur or specific behaviors. Not in the part of the world my people come from. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/183 "2010-06-21T21:31:25Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Not in the part of the world my people come from. Shangri-La? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/184 "2010-06-21T21:33:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Not in the part of the world my people come from. Ah, so your stone age hunter-gatherers were more enlightened and civilized than stone age hunter-gatherers from elsewhere? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/185 "2010-06-21T21:39:15Z")
All my ancestors vanished without a trace. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/186 "2010-06-21T21:52:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Selective breeding in action; we’ve bred ourselves to be insane in a specific way just as we’ve bred some dogs to have long fur or specific behaviors. I don’t know if I’d call it “insanity”. I’d say that religion is the result of the accidental interaction of a constellation of behaviors that taken individually provide survival value. For example, we tend to see patterns where there are none, because a false negative is more dangerous than a false positive. If I jump a hundred times because I see a panther where there isn’t one, that’s preferable to not jumping ONCE because I didn’t see a panther when there was one. We also tend to assign explanations to patterns to help us predict how they will repeat. An explanation that is even a little correct (even if it contains a lot of error) is better than no explanation at all. So we tend to come up with all sorts of half-baked ideas to make sense of what’s happening around us. And since we’re social animals, we put a lot of weight on what others tell us, particularly elders, particularly elders we’re related to. This helps us pass down useful information from one generation to another, but it also makes us particularly susceptible to not examining the beliefs we acquire when we’re young. The result is religion and faith. We pick up a set of half-baked ideas from our family and community that explain a lot of things pretty well if you don’t look too hard to find all the holes and gaps. And we selectively observe a bunch of false positives that confirm what we’re expecting to see. It’s not insanity any more than our natural cravings for fats and sweets is insanity (even though both are counterproductive in our modern times of plenty). ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/187 "2010-06-21T22:06:26Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Why can’t a good one be worthy of worship while being only ludicrously powerful? > > I mean, consider a creator-god who needs six whole days to create a universe and then settles in for a day of rest; that’s not omnipotence, but it’s still pretty danged impressive compared to what you or I (or everyone on the planet working together) could do in a week. Why should omnipotence be a “worthy of worship” criterion? The problem isn’t that he’s not powerful enough. The problem is he’s still too powerful. The POE can be summarized as “If I could help everyone in the world improve their lot, and it wasn’t too hard or personally taxing, then I probably would, because I’m a halfway decent guy. God _could_, but clearly doesn’t, which proves either he’s not a halfway decent guy, or he’s not real.” God could help out a _lot_ just by making manna appear from heaven on everyone’s doorstep each morning. Starvation - gone! But he doesn’t. And because he doesn’t we know he either can’t - or won’t. And it’s a pretty sorry god who can’t make a relatively modest amount of food appear. So we’re left with either evil or nonexistence (or complete unawareness of our plight). Now, as an atheist, I’m perfectly willing to entertain the idea of evil or unaware gods. I don’t beleve in 'em, not any more than I do in Darth Vader, but I can at least entertain the idea at a theoretical level and allow for the possiblity that there might be higher-level beings ignoring our plight, or that Star Wars might be a (suconciously recieved) documentary of distant past past events. But nobody seems to want to talk about the evil, insane, blind, stupid, or dead gods for some reason - they always want to talk about the _impossible_ ones. And there’s little point in waxing theoretical about dieties that can’t even exist in theory. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/188 "2010-06-21T22:11:03Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > But nobody seems to want to talk about the evil, insane, blind, stupid, or dead gods for some reason - they always want to talk about the _impossible_ ones. _Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn!_ ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/189 "2010-06-21T22:25:38Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > But nobody seems to want to talk about the evil, insane, blind, stupid, or dead gods for some reason - they always want to talk about the _impossible_ ones. And there’s little point in waxing theoretical about dieties that can’t even exist in theory. Well, the Greeks and Romans certainly had their fair share of messed up gods. I still think a pantheon of mutually conflicting gods makes a lot more sense re the state of the world than the idea of a single omnimax one. And Jehova used to be just one god out of many. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/190 "2010-06-21T22:33:19Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Well, the Greeks and Romans certainly had their fair share of messed up gods. I still think a pantheon of mutually conflicting gods makes a lot more sense re the state of the world than the idea of a single omnimax one. And Jehova used to be just one god out of many. Of course - which is probably why satan is so popular (or was) as an excuse for the ills of the world. Though in practical terms the dieties would have to be preemptively preventing each other from acting at all - we don’t see manna appearing and then disappearing repeatedly as the competing gods keep undoing each others’ good/bad works, after all. It should also be noted that the Greek/Roman gods weren’t really actively competing to influence mortals’ lives that much; they got by by largeley being apathetic most of the time, which made them a plausible fiction that played well with confirmation bias. ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/191 "2010-06-22T01:03:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And there’s no reason at all for you to “suspect” any such thing. > > My opinion; “faith” probably became a survival advantage due to thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of years of believers systematically killing anyone who didn’t praise religion loud enough. Selective breeding in action; we’ve bred ourselves to be insane in a specific way just as we’ve bred some dogs to have long fur or specific behaviors. Organized religion is probably too new to have been selected so much. What I think is more likely is that religion is an appropriation of naturally-selected behaviors. Much of it was for complex social interactions. Part of it involved intuitive reasoning. Basically making up shit to fill in the blanks in information. People (and probably other animals) needed to do this to survive especially when snap judgments were required. Also humans, being social beings, anthropomorphize everything (including an overuse of causality to create a purpose for a phenomenon) to be able to fill in the holes in their information so that they can problem solve and make decisions. This is why some people insist on filling in unknowns with supernatural things that have human characteristics (gods). This is also why theists simply can’t accept the answer, “I don’t know.” Finally, this is why theists keep starting these types of discussions. They can’t believe that atheists aren’t filling in the blanks with some kind of sciency fantasy. Typically, knowledge will overcome this natural god-creating in many people. Unfortunately for us, natural religion-making became organized with civilizations. Here, people become brainwashed so much that they are incapable of accepting information to replace their fantasizing. Even worse, people are threatened either by violence or, just as bad, social ostracism for not believing. Here’s a youtube video of Andy Thomson’s talk [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/1iMmvu9eMrg/maxresdefault.jpg "Why We Believe in Gods - Andy Thomson - American Atheists 09") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/192 "2010-06-22T01:56:58Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > Organized religion is probably too new to have been selected so much. I didn’t say anything about “organized”. Religion in general appears to go back as far as we have evidence about human behavior. It’s easily old enough. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/193 "2010-06-23T15:12:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Ah, so your stone age hunter-gatherers were more enlightened and civilized than stone age hunter-gatherers from elsewhere? :rolleyes: Nope there was plenty of genocide and murder and avarice in Asia but there weren’t a lot of holy wars over Buddhism, Confucianism or Shamanism. We managed to kill each other for things like land and wealth without pretending it was about God. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/194 "2010-06-23T15:13:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I didn’t say anything about “organized”. Religion in general appears to go back as far as we have evidence about human behavior. It’s easily old enough. Doesn’t that undercut the notion that religion was bred into us by centuries of religious prosecution and wars that made religiosity a survival trait? ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/195 "2010-06-23T17:22:58Z")
I realize this is kinda late, but I felt it only right to respond to the following to clarify: > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > > > Yes, all believers agreeing with those terms are suffering a psychosis… > > If, on the other hand, one claims that one’s religious belief **is** grounded in fact (but of a special kind, e.g., revelation, special insight, emotional truth, etc.), then that changes things, becoming an argument about what qualifies as “fact” and/or the facts themselves. > > OK so because my faith in grounded in this vision I had one time 20 years ago when I thought I saw God (or at least felt his presence very vividly) I am not psychotic, I am merely delusional? I think you misunderstand my point…which was not about your **mental state** , but your **statement** (and its accuracy/ramifications). All I did was to take your original statement (“_my religious faith is not grounded in facts but I believe nonetheless_”), provide definitions of _psychosis_ and _fact_, and show you that **IF** your original statement is true **AND** you accept my definitions, then you (or any religious believer who says their faith is not grounded in facts) suffer a psychosis **by definition**. I have little to no desire to argue as to whether you are psychotic, delusional, or stone-cold sane (although, as my response to **DanBlather** indicates, I do hold an opinion) and I’m in no position to confirm nor deny that you experienced a “vision”. Evidently, using the definitions I supplied, you feel that that experience qualifies as “fact”. If so, then your original statement was incorrect and should have been something like: “_my religious faith is grounded in a personal experience I had; I cannot deny its vividness, impact, nor truth, and it is why I believe._” That seems to me to be a stronger argumentative position (not to mention a better reason for belief) than to posit irrationality from the start. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/196 "2010-06-24T05:58:39Z")
Atheists: Why are you so certain of your non beliefs? Two words: Rush Limbaugh ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/197 "2010-06-24T06:04:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I didn’t say anything about “organized”. Religion in general appears to go back as far as we have evidence about human behavior. It’s easily old enough. And I’m still going to go with it being a result of the mystery of birth, as opposed to the mystery of death. Until _homo whatever_ made the connection between sex and birth, that would have been the biggest puzzle of our existence, and seems to fit the early reverence for Earth Mothers perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/198 "2010-06-25T01:54:57Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > So _ **what,** _ exactly, is the particular feature that’s “singular in its persistence over time and across cultures”? Religion, belief in a spiritual world. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/199 "2010-06-25T02:06:06Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > The moment I went from an agnostic to an atheist was when I allowed the thought to enter my conscience: “Maybe there isn’t anything god-like out there.” Very scary and very freeing moment. A lot of stuff snaps into place but it is a real downer because it does mean that 90% of humans are just being silly and we don’t get to live forever in a happy place. It’s not for the faint of heart. I have that thought constantly, it has never led me to entirely lose faith. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/200 "2010-06-25T02:19:22Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > It is also perfectly possible to be an atheist and believe in some sort of godless afterlife So Athiests can be Buddhist? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777.md?page=11)