# Atheists: Why are you so sure of your non-belief? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777 "2010-06-19T15:24:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/161 "2010-06-21T12:03:58Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > So, some physicists are strongly opposed to the idea of an infinite universe? Would they prefer us to be in an enclosed universe suspended in nothingness? You mean that same “nothingness” outside the universe where some religionists would have us believe God resides? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/162 "2010-06-21T12:06:25Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Well, there are no (other) infinities in nature. And I don’t know if we can even in theory tell the difference between an infinite universe and one that’s just larger than the observable part. > > And as I said above, making the universe infinite doesn’t answer the question of what (if anything) is “outside” it. Making it less than infinite guarantees there is an “outside” to it, whereas infinity suggests that is all there is, and trying to look beyond it is a telescopic waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/163 "2010-06-21T12:11:44Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Making it less than infinite guarantees there is an “outside” to it, whereas infinity suggests that is all there is, and trying to look beyond it is a telescopic waste of time. AFAIK, none of that is true. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/164 "2010-06-21T12:12:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You mean that same “nothingness” outside the universe where some religionists would have us believe God resides? So, God would be like a universal, incorporeal, sentient membrane surrounding the whole kaboodle? That would still presuppose that there would have to have been “something” to form from and form into, or we are back to “it popped out of nowhere.”, which is entirely unsatisfying from a philosophical pov. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/165 "2010-06-21T12:14:33Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > So, God would be like a universal, incorporeal, sentient membrane surrounding the whole kaboodle? > That would still presuppose that there would have to have been “something” to form from and form into, or we are back to “it popped out of nowhere.”, which is entirely unsatisfying from a philosophical pov. Why are you assuming that there is “something” surrounding the universe? This isn’t a necessary assumption as far as I can tell - Neither is the supposition that the universe popped out of nowhere. The evidence (inflationary universe) does not necessitate this interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/166 "2010-06-21T12:14:42Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > AFAIK, none of that is true. Sorry, I should have added “imo”. I’d have to be as arrogant as a religionist to believe I knew for sure. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/167 "2010-06-21T12:18:12Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Why are you assuming that there is “something” surrounding the universe? > > This isn’t a necessary assumption as far as I can tell - Neither is the supposition that the universe popped out of nowhere. The evidence (inflationary universe) does not necessitate this interpretation. It doesn’t necessitate anything. It is all just word-salad, and scientist’s best guesses. Or are you going to point me to an “authority” on “When The Universe Began!”, now? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/168 "2010-06-21T12:21:04Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > It doesn’t necessitate anything. It is all just word-salad, and scientist’s best guesses. > > Or are you going to point me to an “authority” on “When The Universe Began!”, now? I don’t think the universe ‘began’, really, so no and I’m certainly not an authority. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/169 "2010-06-21T12:21:36Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Sorry, I should have added “imo”. I’d have to be as arrogant as a religionist to believe I knew for sure. Sure. Just to explain a bit as far as I understand it: _if_ the universe is “inside” something else, it might be extremely small on the “outside” while still possibly infinite on the inside - meaning it’s possible that you can’t get “out”. The universe may also be curved in on itself, which would mean it might _not_ be infinite, but you still can’t get out of it from the inside regardless of whether there’s anything outside of it. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/170 "2010-06-21T12:30:15Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > I don’t think the universe ‘began’, really, so no and I’m certainly not an authority. And I bet you can’t point me to one either. I’m not claiming my guess is as good as that of the person who has dedicated his life to exploring this shit, but it seems that today’s scientists search for the TOE, is like the alchemist’s search for the Philosopher’s Stone, something that only exists in the minds of men. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/171 "2010-06-21T12:32:33Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Sure. Just to explain a bit as far as I understand it: _if_ the universe is “inside” something else, it might be extremely small on the “outside” while still possibly infinite on the inside - You’ve been watching too much Dr Who. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/172 "2010-06-21T12:37:49Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > And I bet you can’t point me to one either. I’m not claiming my guess is as good as that of the person who has dedicated his life to exploring this shit, but it seems that today’s scientists search for the TOE, is like the alchemist’s search for the Philosopher’s Stone, something that only exists in the minds of men. Well, as Neil deGrasse Tyson likes to remark; “theoretical physics is cheap”. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/173 "2010-06-21T12:38:41Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > And I bet you can’t point me to one either. I’m not claiming my guess is as good as that of the person who has dedicated his life to exploring this shit, but it seems that today’s scientists search for the TOE, is like the alchemist’s search for the Philosopher’s Stone, something that only exists in the minds of men. What constitutes an ‘authority’? I can point you to some philosophers who have spent their lives dealing with this issue, but what good would that do if you don’t accept them as an authority? My point is that there are concepts out there that do not require ultimate beginnings or cosmologies where there is a ‘something’ that exists outside of the universe. In short, they are simpler and make sense of the data. Are they true? I don’t know and I’m not sure how we can really _know_ whether they are true or not. I would say that we can have reasonable confidence in them. If certainty is what you are after, you are probably going to be disappointed. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/174 "2010-06-21T12:55:06Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > What constitutes an ‘authority’? I can point you to some philosophers who have spent their lives dealing with this issue, but what good would that do if you don’t accept them as an authority? In this case, there is no “authority” - there are just intelligent people who have spent a lot of time thinking about it. > [@Meatros](#): > > My point is that there are concepts out there that do not require ultimate beginnings or cosmologies where there is a ‘something’ that exists outside of the universe. In short, they are simpler and make sense of the data. > > Are they true? The data is subject to human interpretation. > [@Meatros](#): > > I don’t know and I’m not sure how we can really _know_ whether they are true or not. I would say that we can have reasonable confidence in them. If you mean confidence in them having a better idea than their predecessors, I’d agree. > [@Meatros](#): > > If certainty is what you are after, you are probably going to be disappointed. If energy can never be destroyed, only transformed, even the death of consciousness is uncertain, but I’m not going to attribute a Grand Design to it. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/175 "2010-06-21T13:03:44Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > In this case, there is no “authority” - there are just intelligent people who have spent a lot of time thinking about it. Isn’t that practically the case with almost everything? > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > The data is subject to human interpretation. Obviously. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > If you mean confidence in them having a better idea than their predecessors, I’d agree. I’m not sure I see a meaningful distinction here. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > If energy can never be destroyed, only transformed, even the death of consciousness is uncertain, but I’m not going to attribute a Grand Design to it. For what reason? Seems like S&Gs to me. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/176 "2010-06-21T13:43:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah, I understand the athiests position and it is perfectly reasonable. I am even willing to admit that it is more reasonable than having faith. I don’t think any religion has got it perfectly correct and I suspect that despite thousands of years of human creativity and imagination, none of them are much closer to the truth than the pink unicorns but I also suspect that there is something. > > Perhaps, my vision was simply my conscience talking to me through a proxy. Perhaps my brain conjures a God when I need to talk to a God. Perhaps we will discover that there is a little part of the brain that is different between those who have faith and those who do not. Perhaps it is genetic and perhaps there is an evolutionary advantage to having faith (perhaps it is linked to the same gene that gives us immunity to some disease that killed off anyone without that resistance, perhaps faith makes you more likely to conceive), but there must be something more than “God simply doesn’t exist and 90% of humans are just being silly”. I once was where you are. I was raised a Christian but asked a lot of questions about the things I was told and I tried out a few different Christian sects. In my experience, whenever the light of inquiry shines on religion it retreats into the shadows. When no-one questions it, it makes bold claims. When pressed it weakens on those claims until only a vague “there might be something” is left. This is always where religious debates seem to end up - There might be something supernatural out there that I’ve never seen and can’t make claims about. If that is the boldest claim that religion can make then you are welcome to your religion. The moment I went from an agnostic to an atheist was when I allowed the thought to enter my conscience: “Maybe there isn’t anything god-like out there.” Very scary and very freeing moment. A lot of stuff snaps into place but it is a real downer because it does mean that 90% of humans are just being silly and we don’t get to live forever in a happy place. It’s not for the faint of heart. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/177 "2010-06-21T13:57:02Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > You make an interesting point. I’ll have to think about it some more. Thanks. Seriously. That is more than this nontheist is used to getting from believers. > [@](#): > > But none of that is the basis for my belief that there could possibly exist a higher power of some kind. Sure, a “higher power of some kind” is possible. But isn’t just about _anything_ possible if we allow exceptions to what we understand to be “universal” laws, and consider fallible all of our senses and thinking processes? I mean, it is _possible_ that we all exist in the Matrix, the Lathe of Heaven, or somesuch, no? But if we can’t even trust our senses and thoughts, then what use is there in even asking what is or is not possible? I think that many “possible” things are so highly improbable that I am happy to lead my life treating them as tho they are impossible. You placing any bets on which direction the sun is going to rise from tomorrow? Cause you never can completely rule out the possibility that some all-powerful rink guard in the sky isn’t going to come over the PA and announce “Opposite skate”! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/178 "2010-06-21T15:48:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > … Well, tell that to Mohammed and the Muslims or to John Smith and the Mormons or to Tom Cruise and the L. Ron Hubbardians. … [nitpick] It’s Joseph Smith. [/nitpick] To answer the OP, I claim no evidence of absence. I am a _nearly_ 100% confident atheist, simply because nothing has persuaded me to believe otherwise. If a person claims to have received some sort of spiritual manifestation that had persuaded him to believe, I simply tell him that I have had no such experience and until I do I will not believe. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/179 "2010-06-21T18:20:10Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I have always thought that agnosticism was a belief that we can’t really be sure if there is a God/gods. > > Atheism is an affirmative belief that there is in fact NOT a higher being(s). > > I don’t think that I am making straw man arguments. Over in the death/afterlife threads, the atheists are stating with certainty that this life is all we have; nothing before or after. As is common around here, you are confusing knowledge with belief. You can believe that there are no dinosaurs still living without being 100% sure of it. We’ve got lots of good evidence for our belief that no gods exist - at least not any defined by humans so far. There is the great diversity in the kind of gods believed in over time and over place, there are failed prophecies, there is the fact that any statements about the physical world made in supposedly inspired books turn out to be wrong, there is the success of science in filling in the gaps in our knowledge that religion has never been able to fill. It is also perfectly possible to be an atheist and believe in some sort of godless afterlife - like Farmer’s Riverworld. But most atheists come to their conclusions from evidence and reason, and the lack of evidence of an afterlife - plus the lack of evidence for a soul - tends to make us not believe in this either. As far as absence of evidence, etc., I started a thread a while ago which went on for pages and pages on this very subject. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777/180 "2010-06-21T21:14:07Z")
In my view, the more one goes around and around, the vaguer the posited god becomes. Eventually it becomes so devoid of characteristics that it is essentially meaningless. So does anyone have a more specific idea of a god that can be debated? For example, it seems to me impossible for there to exist a creator god that is simultaneously omnipotent, omniscient, and good. That really kills any Western notion of a god worthy of worship. > [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > If there really is a god or goddess in charge of this planet, s/he has been very lax in the Smiting department for the past couple of millenia. Last week, god smote Touchdown Jesus. > [@Indistinguishable](#): > > It’s not my business to prevent anything; I’m not responsible for the design of the universe. I’m just saying, it’s certainly possible for an infinite universe to lack planets covered in chocolate, the same way it’s certainly possible to have an infinite string of letters that never contains my name; lots of infinite universes are filled with planets covered in chocolate, and lots of infinite strings of letters contain infinitely many instances of my name, but some don’t have any. There’s infinite and there’s infinite. In a truly infinite universe, these things have to happen. Given sufficient time, the improbable becomes inevitable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-non-belief/543777.md?page=10)