# Atheists, why debate christians? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681 "2011-08-30T21:49:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/181 "2011-08-31T17:19:48Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > At this point I would like to take a moment to express my pride about being one of the original Apostles of the fastest growing religion on Earth – the Church of Daffy. Sure, you call us crazy now, and you call our church a cult, but just you wait! In a thousand years or so, no one will remember the origins of the church, or the facile and specious reasons for its existence, they will just know it as the the source of all the good things in the world. > > All Hail Daffy! [Meanwhile, in the future…](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im29S6ZWRDI) ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/182 "2011-08-31T17:22:42Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > None of the kings of Israel? None of the prophets? None of the apostles? Nothing? Are most of the people and places in the Bible completely fictional? Do any of these things have anything to do with the religious/spiritual tenets of the Christian religion? No? Then who cares? > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Because, as we all know, faith equals blind faith, right? I mean, falling backwards off of a ten foot ladder and expecting someone to catch you without any reason to believe as much is the same thing as falling backwards off of a ten foot ladder and expecting someone to catch you when they said they said they would catch you, right? I mean, that’s what you’re asserting, right? You’re confusing faith based on empirical evidence and observed phenomena with faith based on supernatural events. In the latter case (which includes any religious belief), the faith is indeed blind. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/183 "2011-08-31T17:27:01Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Because, as we all know, faith equals blind faith, right? I mean, falling backwards off of a ten foot ladder and expecting someone to catch you without any reason to believe as much is the same thing as falling backwards off of a ten foot ladder and expecting someone to catch you when they said they said they would catch you, right? I mean, that’s what you’re asserting, right? No, obviously what he is (accurately) asserting is that the faith you are defending is wholly of the first kind; you are “falling off the ladder” with no evidence that anyone is there, or _can_ be there. An act of pure blind faith. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/184 "2011-08-31T17:27:20Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > No, because Christianity is not based on blind faith. Then it’s based on nothing at all… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/185 "2011-08-31T17:35:05Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Here’s a simple question; if Tex Avery wasn’t aware of it, then how are you aware of it? because daffy appeared to **Voyager** and told him. > [@](#): > > Even if we were to accept your last sentence as being absolutely true, your first two sentences are nonsensical. Why wouldn’t you expect Tex Avery to necessarily be aware of it? What other figure inspired by a divine deity do you know of who wasn’t aware that they were being inspired by a divine deity? In fact, since the topic has veered to Christianity, what Christian figure would be analogous to Tex Avery? Is there even one? The Gospel of Mark says that the apostles were not aware of who Jesus was. Demands for precise one-to-one analogous correlations are just special pleading anyway. > [@](#): > > None of the kings of Israel? None of the prophets? None of the apostles? Nothing? Are most of the people and places in the Bible completely fictional? Most of the people are fictional. yes. The fact that it has real historical places means nothing. So does the Illiad. There is no historical evidence to corrorate any of the supernatural claims of the Bible and much which refutes the historical claims. The core historical claims of Christianity are corroborated by nothing, and don’t even have any primary testimony (nothing in the New Testament was written by anyone who ever knew Jesus). > [@](#): > > Would you be more likely to believe a text if it was written, say, sixty years after the fact (for the record, sixty years is remarkably fast), or six hundred years after the fact? Would you be more likely to believe a text written by, say, Paul, or someone writing in his stead as him? Rhetorical questions, of course. None of those things would have any _per se_ bearing on whether or not I believed the text. I would not believe claims of magic if they were written yesterday by my dad. > [@](#): > > Why should I believe you? I can go into excuciating detail if you want. Do you really want to hear it? It will require a separate thread. If you really want to go into it, I’ll go into it, but don’t ask if you don’t want the answer. > [@](#): > > …Oh, wait. I think I see how this works. You’re an atheist and I’m a Christian so, apparently, you’re more educated than me. Atheist has nothing to do with it, but, as it happens, I actually _am_ somewhat educated on this subject. I’m not asserting anything because I am an atheist. If you want to go into it, I’ll go into it with facts. > [@](#): > > Now on a serious note, and ignoring the pseudo-display of intellectual superiority (yeah, because I don’t know what Biblican criticism is :rolleyes:) I can tell from your posts that you don’t > [@](#): > > have you read the comments in this thread from those who, I’m guessing, would describe themselves as atheists? For example, and going back a point I made earlier, let’s take something simple, that being the idea that Tex Avery was inspired by some grand deity to create Donald Duck in that deity’s image even though Tex Avery himself made no mention of it. How would that be more credible than the idea of, say, Tex Avery being inspired by some grand deity to create Donald Duck in that deity’s image because Tex Avery said so himself? Both scenarios are equally credible, and both scenarios have exactly the same evidence that the core claims of Christianity do. > [@](#): > > Because, as we all know, faith equals blind faith, right? I mean, falling backwards off of a ten foot ladder and expecting someone to catch you without any reason to believe as much is the same thing as falling backwards off of a ten foot ladder and expecting someone to catch you when they said they said they would catch you, right? I mean, that’s what you’re asserting, right? You are aware that religious beliefs would fall into the first category, are you not? They lack any basis at all. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/186 "2011-08-31T18:39:33Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > No, because Christianity is not based on blind faith. Not to junior mod or anything and I realize that this has started a bit of a derail (not entirely your fault) - if you are interested in defending your position, here is a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=621397&page=7) where you can do so. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/187 "2011-08-31T18:46:52Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Because, as we all know, faith equals blind faith, right? I mean, falling backwards off of a ten foot ladder and expecting someone to catch you without any reason to believe as much is the same thing as falling backwards off of a ten foot ladder and expecting someone to catch you when they said they said they would catch you, right? I mean, that’s what you’re asserting, right? Did the person who said they would catch you write it down it in a book 2000 years ago? Then, yeah, it’s the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/188 "2011-08-31T18:49:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > because daffy appeared to **Voyager** and told him. This part of your post would be an almost a perfect parallel to the Gospels if Voyager had never posted in this thread and your username was ‘anonymous’… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/189 "2011-08-31T19:02:44Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > And yet, this doesn’t even begin to cut at what Lobohan said. > > [QUOTE=Lobohan] > > No, Christians argue exactly as above. They don’t have any historical corroboration for anything. None of the kings of Israel? None of the prophets? None of the apostles? Nothing? Are most of the people and places in the Bible completely fictional? [/QUOTE] There’s plenty of people and places in Daffy Duck cartoons that we have independent confirmation of, too. Thanks for reaffirming my Duckist faith. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/190 "2011-08-31T19:08:08Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > [Meanwhile, in the future…](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im29S6ZWRDI) Proof that Daffy in His divinity can transcend time and space. (Of course, that’s also how we on earth in the 21st century can have knowledge of His doings on Planet X in the 24-1/2th century.) ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/191 "2011-08-31T19:13:49Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > None of the kings of Israel? None of the prophets? None of the apostles? Nothing? Are most of the people and places in the Bible completely fictional? Albequerque, Timbuktu, Pismo Beach, and Walla Walla are documented factual places. Dick Cheney corroborated the survivability of shotgun blasts to the face. Just providing historical archeological record that supports Daffy’s divinity… ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/192 "2011-08-31T19:24:41Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > Dick Cheney corroborated the survivability of shotgun blasts to the face. Just providing historical archeological record that supports Daffy’s divinity… Although, to be fair, the beak of the lawyer that Cheney shot did not spin around his head. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/193 "2011-08-31T19:28:00Z")
> [@strugglingChristian](#): > > but the ones who think the christians are imagining things, why are you having a conversation with someone you think is delusional? Because they keep knocking on my door, shoving pamphlets in my face, yelling about how I’m evil if I don’t follow their orders, pushing for laws that favor their beliefs only, blocking abortion clinics and are basically just being big cry-babies whenever they don’t get their collective way. Heaven help the poor, down-trodden Christians, an atheist talked back once. I tried debating Christians in college but, as the OP implies, it truly is beating your head against a brick wall. For what? In one such debate, a Christian pointed out to me that if I truly believed what I was saying I wouldn’t need to convince others. So true and so ironic. If only she and all the other Christians could hear her words. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/194 "2011-08-31T19:36:07Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Do any of these things have anything to do with the religious/spiritual tenets of the Christian religion? No? Then who cares? I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that **most** Christians probably care about the prophets and apostles. > [@](#): > > You’re confusing faith based on empirical evidence and observed phenomena with faith based on supernatural events. In the latter case (which includes any religious belief), the faith is indeed blind. It seems to be that the atheist’s way of winning an argument is redefine terms and then claim that because something doesn’t fit that definition, then it must not be so. [Blind faith](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/blind+faith) is defined as belief without true understanding, perception, or discrimination. The difference between faith and blind faith has nothing-- little, actually-- to do ‘empirical evidence’ or ‘observed phenomenon’, but rather why one believes what they do and if there’s a given reason to believe that. You might not agree with what and why someone believes what they do, but this doesn’t turn faith into blind faith. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] No, obviously what he is (accurately) asserting is that the faith you are defending is wholly of the first kind; you are “falling off the ladder” with no evidence that anyone is there, or can be there. An act of pure blind faith. [/quote] False. Next question. [QUOTE=Who\_me?] Then it’s based on nothing at all… [/quote] If something isn’t based on blind faith, then it’s based on nothing at all? That is an overall highly ridiculous statement. (I wonder what would happen if I said that if you don’t believe if God, then you believe in nothing?) ---
**Author:** ![strugglingChristian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@strugglingChristian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/strugglingChristian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/195 "2011-08-31T19:43:51Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that **most** > > (I wonder what would happen if I said that if you don’t believe if God, then you believe in nothing?) there is no such thing as nothing. nothing does not exist. It cannot be described without referring to something. It is only the absence of a thing. When you speak of nothing you speak of no thing. your statement has no foundation. the yrkthrps are more relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/196 "2011-08-31T19:46:07Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that **most** Christians probably care about the prophets and apostles. Prophets never actually predicted anything and the apostles didn’t write anything in the bible. > [@](#): > > It seems to be that the atheist’s way of winning an argument is redefine terms and then claim that because something doesn’t fit that definition, then it must not be so. [Blind faith](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/blind+faith) is defined as belief without true understanding, perception, or discrimination. The difference between faith and blind faith has nothing-- little, actually-- to do ‘empirical evidence’ or ‘observed phenomenon’, but rather why one believes what they do and if there’s a given reason to believe that. You might not agree with what and why someone believes what they do, but this doesn’t turn faith into blind faith. There is no evidence for the bible being anything more than a group of ancient writings. It has no supernatural insight or magic to it. Why do you think the Bible is magic and the Quran isn’t? They’re both equally without evidence for supernatural power. Yet you choose one and dismiss the other. You are advocating nonsense. > [@](#): > > False. Next question. What is the evidence. Back up your bullshit or run away. > [@](#): > > If something isn’t based on blind faith, then it’s based on nothing at all? That is an overall highly ridiculous statement. > > (I wonder what would happen if I said that if you don’t believe if God, then you believe in nothing?) I assume that Der believes in reality and science. In looking to nature for explanations. You believe in looking to bronze-age nonsense for answers. ---
**Author:** ![SimonMoon5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@SimonMoon5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SimonMoon5)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/197 "2011-08-31T19:46:33Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > And I’m sure you’ll have no problem submitting those 13 animation cells for analysis then. They can only be clearly viewed through the use of certain translation stones, preferably at the bottom of a hat. And they are obviously of such great value, that not just anybody can be allowed to view them. But they have been partially translated… er… redrawn for the viewing of common people. Unfortunately, Martin Harris took all this work away and “lost” it. And then, before work could begin again, an angel came and took those animation cels away. Too bad. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/198 "2011-08-31T19:51:59Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > False. No, true. There’s no evidence at all that the religion you are defending is true, there’s no evidence it _can_ be true. All the evidence is _against_ it. It is, again, just as silly as believing in Santa Claus. > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > (I wonder what would happen if I said that if you don’t believe if God, then you believe in nothing?) I’d ask what’s the difference between saying that and saying “If you don’t believe in Tezcatlipoca, you believe in nothing”. Or Zeus, or Santa Claus, or Sauron. There’s nothing profound about believing in your particular imaginary sky thug. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/199 "2011-08-31T19:56:55Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > At this point I would like to take a moment to express my pride about being one of the original Apostles of the fastest growing religion on Earth – the Church of Daffy. Sure, you call us crazy now, and you call our church a cult, but just you wait! In a thousand years or so, no one will remember the origins of the church, or the facile and specious reasons for its existence, they will just know it as the the source of all the good things in the world. > > All Hail Daffy! Me too. And know what bugs me? The War against Daffyists. When you go into a store in the mall to buy a present for Daffy’s Birthday (which we put under a big carrot in our living rooms) do the clerks wish you Happy Daffyday? No! I rest my case. ETA: I meant Duckmas, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/200 "2011-08-31T20:02:51Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > This part of your post would be an almost a perfect parallel to the Gospels if Voyager had never posted in this thread and your username was ‘anonymous’… 😉 He’d have to do hundreds of posts under my name to really match it. Hmm, if they were using SDMB rules back then, there would be no Bible. It seems the Bible was written by sockpuppets. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681.md?page=11)