# Atheists, why debate christians? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681 "2011-08-30T21:49:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![strugglingChristian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@strugglingChristian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/strugglingChristian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/41 "2011-08-31T02:18:13Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > That’s a pretty broad brush, don’t you think? _Some_ Christians are trying to ban those things. Some _other_ > > You can’t attribute the beliefs of those Christians who would institute religion in schools, for example, to those more numerous (but quieter) Christians who would do no such thing, any more than I can attribute the beliefs of those atheists who would remake society by exterminating the oppressor classes to _al_l atheists. Do you really need to engage with such a generalizing comment? I did not bother to answer because it is plainly obvious that Christianity is only 2000 or so years old and before it, the world was certainly not perfect. In fact, I think it got considerably better. but more to the point, if christianity is the source of the world’s ills, why are current nations where it is forbidden not perfect? And why was the world prior to it so, no other word comes to mind, barbaric? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/42 "2011-08-31T02:27:59Z")
> [@strugglingChristian](#): > > Believe me I understand what you are saying because just 2 weeks ago i believed the same that Allah was just another word for God like Dieu or Dios. but my tp friends convinced me otherwise, well they brought up points which I am considering. You were right. Your friends are wrong. > [@](#): > > And the lying thing, someone did point out to me the actual surah and though i did not memorize it, i seem to recall that it was in effect you can lie to unbelievers. it had nothing about qualifiers but maybe i’m misremembering? It had qualifiers. A lot of Muslim-bashing sites take surahs out of context or use distorted translations, but essentially the Koran only allows lying to enemies of Islam (often misleadingly translated as “unbelievers”) during war, or when it’s the lesser of two evils. The Koran also says that Muslims can be forgiven if they tell white lies to their spouses for the sake of peace (for instance, it’s ok for a husband to tell her wife she doesn’t look fat in that dress), but the Koran is also very clear that lying and dishonesty are, on balance, bad things, not good things. For instance: Surah 40:28. Be honest because honesty leads to goodness, and goodness leads to Paradise. Beware of falsehood because it leads to immorality, and immorality leads to Hell ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/43 "2011-08-31T02:28:23Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > How many times have you seen Christian advocacy on this board? Generally these threads start with one of the usual suspects wanting to get in yet another round of God-bashing. They then descend into a self-congratulatory orgy of “gee, us liberal atheists are so superior to all those conservative bible thumpers, aren’t we great?” drivel that prattles on for a half dozen pages, with a few believers getting shouted down any time they attempt to participate in any meaningful way. > > The topic has been done to death. Stick a fork in it, it’s done. Leave it alone, and let us never speak of this again. Where is the like button? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/44 "2011-08-31T02:29:37Z")
> [@strugglingChristian](#): > > Believe me I understand what you are saying because just 2 weeks ago i believed the same that Allah was just another word for God like Dieu or Dios. but my tp friends convinced me otherwise, well they brought up points which I am considering. > And the lying thing, someone did point out to me the actual surah and though i did not memorize it, i seem to recall that it was in effect you can lie to unbelievers. it had nothing about qualifiers but maybe i’m misremembering? The Christian Bible also says a lot of things that most Christians would find abhorrent. Furthermore, and this isn’t meant to be a value judgement, without a real-world reference it’s difficult to determine if some abstract concept is exactly equal to another abstract concept. So people who believe that Allah and God are the same don’t have to believe in the exact same things. They can each believe that the other side is simply worshipping him wrong. They don’t have to conform to what some outsider thinks they _should_ believe, because 99% of believers of both religions don’t believe every little line and jot anyway. But if I had to choose, I’d vote that God an Allah **are** the same concept, because Allah is the Arabic word for God. I doubt that when Christian Arabs pray to Allah that they are worshipping someone different from when English Catholics pray to God. ---
**Author:** ![medicated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@medicated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/medicated)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/45 "2011-08-31T02:30:27Z")
Back to the OP: I argue with them for exactly the same reason that I would debate communists or white power nuts, to pick two examples more or less at random. They represent Ideology, something that I find both disturbing and fascinating. To see an intelligent human being who bases their world view and political philosophy on a foundation devoid of any evidentiary basis, staking their emotional wellbeing on it, forces me to conclude that this is probably a matter worth exploring. All the more so when that Ideology so often requires them to force political and scientific reality to conform to it, and damn the price. Evolution, easily one of the most powerful scientific theories ever discovered,is under threat in the science classroom due almost entirely to such Christian ideologues. Should they succeed, the assault will almost certainly begin on physics, astronomy, or geology. Don’t even get me started on political Christianity, and the bizarre reimaginings of history springing from that (cough…Barton). How about morality? The latest darling of the apologists is Paul Copan, a man who uses every logical fallacy around in order to argue that genocide is wonderful and holy if God orders it, but that’s it’s not really genocide anyway. At the very best, he’s a moral cretin, as are those who take his arguments seriously. Had they no political power, I wouldn’t give a damn. As it is, I’m not that apathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/46 "2011-08-31T02:35:02Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > And which side is it that starts the threads? I don’t think you’ll find many “Gay Marriage makes the Baby Jeebus cry” OPs here. You’ll find a lot more “Christians suck” OPs. Since when? Religious people start religion based threads here all the time; I see a lot fewer threads started from an atheist perspective. Atheism is primarily reactive. Some believer starts gibbering about their religion, some unbelievers wander in to tell them the many ways that they are wrong. And if there’s one thing that religion is consistent about, it’s being wrong. > [@strugglingChristian](#): > > but more to the point, if christianity is the source of the world’s ills, why are current nations where it is forbidden not perfect? Because it’s not the only source of evil in the world. All religion is destructive by nature, and most of humanity is religious; and even religion isn’t the only source of evil in the world, just the worst. > [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > You can’t attribute the beliefs of those Christians who would institute religion in schools, for example, to those more numerous (but quieter) Christians who would do no such thing, any more than I can attribute the beliefs of those atheists who would remake society by exterminating the oppressor classes to _al_l atheists. I see no reason to think that the Christians who want to push their religion in school are anything but a [majority](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml). > [@](#): > > Overall, about two-thirds of Americans want creationism taught along with evolution. ---
**Author:** ![strugglingChristian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@strugglingChristian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/strugglingChristian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/47 "2011-08-31T02:35:11Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > because Allah is the Arabic word for God. i’m going to have to talk to my husband about this to know for sure but I don’t think so, based on the fact that the arabic phrase you say to become muslim is 'there is only one god and his name is allah and mohammed is his prophet." so ive assumed they have a word for “god” but his name is Allah just as the jewish god’s name is 'Jehovah" ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/48 "2011-08-31T02:39:06Z")
> [@strugglingChristian](#): > > i’m going to have to talk to my husband about this to know for sure but I don’t think so, based on the fact that the arabic phrase you say to become muslim is 'there is only one god and his name is allah and mohammed is his prophet." so ive assumed they have a word for “god” but his name is Allah just as the jewish god’s name is 'Jehovah" The first part of the phrase is “There is no God but God.” There’s no disputing the fact that Allah is Arabic for “God.” And for that matters Jews don’t call their god Jehovah. The Christians came up with that based on a way Jews represented their god’s name in Hebrew. ---
**Author:** ![strugglingChristian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@strugglingChristian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/strugglingChristian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/49 "2011-08-31T02:42:44Z")
ok the christian god’s name is jehovah, either way, get my point? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/50 "2011-08-31T02:43:44Z")
When I debate a Christian (or any religious or woo-believing person, really) I have no expectation of convincing them of anything. I find the process entertaining and hopefully others do as well. And it’s funny when they completely lose it. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/51 "2011-08-31T02:44:05Z")
> [@strugglingChristian](#): > > i’m going to have to talk to my husband about this to know for sure but I don’t think so, based on the fact that the arabic phrase you say to become muslim is 'there is only one god and his name is allah and mohammed is his prophet." so ive assumed they have a word for “god” but his name is Allah just as the jewish god’s name is 'Jehovah" That’s an English translation of the Shahadah, the Muslim profession of faith. “Allah” is indeed the Arabic word for God. Muslims say that Allah has 99 names, but I think in English we’d say those were attributes, rather than names. They’re phrases like “the compassionate” and “the creator” and so on. ---
**Author:** ![medicated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@medicated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/medicated)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/52 "2011-08-31T02:47:31Z")
> [@strugglingChristian](#): > > ok the christian god’s name is jehovah, either way, get my point? Not really. Arabic speaking Christians call their God ‘Allah’ too. ---
**Author:** ![strugglingChristian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@strugglingChristian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/strugglingChristian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/53 "2011-08-31T02:50:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And it’s funny when they completely lose it. wow…i’m very interested in your type but questions for you elude me at this moment. we can never reach common ground so i dont know where to start. taking pleasure in someone “completely losing it” is something foreign to me. I find it disturbing when other people are agitated and I’m more of a ‘calmer’ than an ‘agitator’ but to each his own. Maybe later we can converse. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/54 "2011-08-31T02:50:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Since when? Religious people start religion based threads here all the time; I see a lot fewer threads started from an atheist perspective. Atheism is primarily reactive. Some believer starts gibbering about their religion, some unbelievers wander in to tell them the many ways that they are wrong. And if there’s one thing that religion is consistent about, it’s being wrong. We’ve had this discussion a thousand times. You do not know that believers are wrong. It is not possible for you to know they are wrong. They believe one thing, you believe another. Either side could be correct. You can’t disprove God any more than believers can prove God. You do not know. You do not have all the answers. Your militant atheism is fundamentally no different than the militant believers. You take an unyielding position on an unanswerable question. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/55 "2011-08-31T02:51:55Z")
> [@strugglingChristian](#): > > i’m going to have to talk to my husband about this to know for sure but I don’t think so, based on the fact that the arabic phrase you say to become muslim is 'there is only one god and his name is allah and mohammed is his prophet." so ive assumed they have a word for “god” but his name is Allah just as the jewish god’s name is 'Jehovah" It’s the same as “god” and “God” (capitalized and uncapitalized) in English. There’s a word for “gods,” generically, and the capitalized “God,” denoting a proper name,The Arabic word for “god” is “allah.” His name is Allah (capital A) basically meaning “THE God” as opposed to just any god. The name means “God.” it’s not something else. It’s not a different God from who Christians and Jews worship. The Koran explicitly says it’s the same God. ---
**Author:** ![strugglingChristian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@strugglingChristian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/strugglingChristian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/56 "2011-08-31T02:53:00Z")
I have those 99 names on my kitchen wall saintly loser. and my husband refers to them as the “99 names of God” In conversation when he speaks he uses both God and Allah. Man I wish a muslim was here. But i’m going home anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/57 "2011-08-31T02:53:30Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s the same as “god” and “God” (capitalized and uncapitalized) in English. There’s a word for “gods,” generically, and the capitalized “God,” denoting a proper name,The Arabic word for “god” is “allah.” His name is Allah (capital A). The name means “God.” it’s not something else. It’s not a different God from who Christians and Jews worship. The Koran explicitly says it’s the same God. Credit where it’s due, **Dio** ’s correct on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/58 "2011-08-31T02:57:13Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > We’ve had this discussion a thousand times. You do not know that believers are wrong. This is not correct, actually. They are provably wrong on a number of things. This is a fatuous objection anyway. There are an infinite number of imaginary entities which you can accuse people of not being able to disprove. You can’t disprove the existence of Daffy Duck. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/59 "2011-08-31T03:04:28Z")
> [@strugglingChristian](#): > > wow…i’m very interested in your type but questions for you elude me at this moment. we can never reach common ground so i dont know where to start. taking pleasure in someone “completely losing it” is something foreign to me. I find it disturbing when other people are agitated and I’m more of a ‘calmer’ than an ‘agitator’ but to each his own. Maybe later we can converse. Well, heck, I could direct you to one or two examples on this very board of someone completely bubbling over in frustration to the point of piling oodles of scorn on inoffensive skeptics such as myself. But in any case, I’ve no particular reason to object to (or care about) your beliefs when they are about how to behave and how to cope with life’s various mysteries and hassles and whatnot. It’s only if you start suggesting that your beliefs should form the basis of law (thus affecting others) or that your beliefs have actual real-world effects (i.e that lack of prayer causes hurricanes) that you’re likely to get challenged. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/60 "2011-08-31T03:18:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Oakminster](#): > > > > We’ve had this discussion a thousand times. You do not know that believers are wrong. It is not possible for you to know they are wrong. They believe one thing, you believe another. Either side could be correct. You can’t disprove God any more than believers can prove God. > > > > You do not know. You do not have all the answers. Your militant atheism is fundamentally no different than the militant believers. You take an unyielding position on an unanswerable question. > > This is not correct, actually. They are provably wrong on a number of things. This is a fatuous objection anyway. There are an infinite number of imaginary entities which you can accuse people of not being able to disprove. You can’t disprove the existence of Daffy Duck. What **Diogenes** said. I disbelieve in God for the same reason I disbelieve in Zeus and Sauron and Santa Claus. It is amusing though when the believers are pushed into making what amounts to a claim that reason and evidence are both unimportant. They can’t win an argument on reason or the facts, so they are pushed into what amounts to a a form of everything-is-equally-true solipsism. And my assertion that there are no gods IS different than those of the believers; my assertion fits the facts, my assertion is logical, mine is reasonable. Theirs aren’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681.md?page=4)