# Atheists, why debate christians? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681 "2011-08-30T21:49:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/121 "2011-08-31T05:51:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Definitely not. In fact, I said the exact opposite as I’m sure you are well aware. You don’t need to be especially clever or wise to not buy religion; religion again is blatantly stupid and irrational. It doesn’t take a genius to see through religion, or even someone of merely average intelligence. It just takes someone who is willing do so. > > And it’s rather silly (if common) to claim that disbelieving that something exists because there’s no evidence for it and it violates physical law is an arrogant claim of intellectual superiority. It’s - obviously - the believers who make claims that they know something exists without evidence and claiming special enlightenment who are the arrogant ones. You’re the one claiming that everyone that disagrees with you is “blatantly stupid and irrational”. That’s pretty arrogant. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/122 "2011-08-31T06:15:43Z")
Anecdotal evidence is weak here on the Dope but I have a question **strugglingChristian**. What has been your experience with people who have discovered _any_ religion after the age of discretion? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/123 "2011-08-31T06:20:14Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > You’re the one claiming that everyone that disagrees with you is “blatantly stupid and irrational”. That’s pretty arrogant. Hardly; what they believe is obviously stupid. Just look at your own inability to defend it with anything better than variations on “you can’t prove it’s impossible!” I ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/124 "2011-08-31T06:56:26Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > “Rabbit season!” > “Duck season!” > “Rabbit season!” > “Duck season!” > > See, this is why atheists debate Christians. Who knew this was going to turn into a discussion of Looney Tunes? I believe in the Holy Trinity of Bugs, Daffy and Elmer myself. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/125 "2011-08-31T07:00:05Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > So then you are an infallible genius, despite claiming otherwise. Der Trihs has all the answers to the ultimate questions, and the millions of people who have believed in various gods throughout history are all stupid. All hail Der Trihs, for truly he is the wisest among us. > > Or maybe not. So, those believing in the Greek gods, the Egyptian gods, and the Babylonian gods were right? How about those believing in the Hindu gods today? At least those living 2500 years ago had the excuse of not knowing how the universe worked, so they made stuff up. What’s yours? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/126 "2011-08-31T07:02:53Z")
> [@strugglingChristian](#): > > I disagree that it’s the same as disbelieveing in Santa. i’ve never seen someone insisting with children who believe in Santa that their beliefs are erroneous and they are stupid for believing so and debate with them the proofs of his existence. If there are Santa threads like God threads, please point the way. I need a laugh. You probably have never overheard seven year olds arguing about Santa, then. Same thing. Some kids refuse to accept the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/127 "2011-08-31T07:07:30Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > If Daffy told Tex Avery to keep his mouth shut, then how do you know Tex Avery was told to keep his mouth shut unless Tex Avery told you this himself, thus meaning that what you said wasn’t done was, indeed, done? Daffy appeared to me one day, on the way to San Jose, and told me. You can’t prove he didn’t. These kinds of revelations seem to be the best evidence Christians around here have. (I hope the IPU doesn’t gore me with her holy horn when she finds I’ve been straying from the true path.) ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/128 "2011-08-31T07:24:43Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Daffy appeared to me one day, on the way to San Jose, and told me. .. OMD! You too??!! Plus, I am impressed that you know the way to San Jose. I’ve been away so long. I may go wrong and lose my way. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/129 "2011-08-31T07:24:43Z")
> [@strugglingChristian](#): > > But may I make an observation for those who feel besieged by christians, I have tea party evangelical friends who feel besieged by unbelievers (atheists or muslims). And I don’t get it. I’m sorry, I don’t believe either of you that the other is trying to take over and control you. Am I the naive one? No, you are the sane one. The ones that feel besieged are suffering from [classic paranoid symptoms](http://www.enotes.com/psychoanalysis-encyclopedia/paranoia). > [@](#): > > Paranoia has individual and institutional, social and cultural forms and determinants. There is probably at least a germ of paranoia in everyone which may be activated in regressive states with increased vulnerability. Clinically, paranoia may be found in mild transient forms, paranoid states of varying degree and duration, fixed paranoid traits and paranoid character, and borderline schizophrenia. The range of paranoid conditions doubtless depends upon constitutional, characterological, and experiential variables. > > …The paranoid personality is characterized by a number of common traits: basic distrust; suspiciousness; readiness to feel slighted, injured or persecuted; a tendency to collect grievances and grudges; and vindictiveness. The paranoid personality either anticipates or fears being exploited and abused; is irrationally suspicious of hidden dangers or threats; and expects or believes in the infidelity of a spouse, the disloyalty of friends, and notions of hostile conspiracy. Betrayals are anticipated or assumed, so that for the paranoid friend may immediately become foe, and seeming affection may be replaced by an implacable animosity. … > > This defensive splitting off (Klein, Melanie, 1932) is also recognizable in group processes, as in the tendency to idealize one’s own group and to distrust and project evil and hostility to those outside the group, especially against defenseless minorities unable to counterattack. Paranoid processes may be discerned in various sects and ideologies, where there is devaluation and persecution of those who are seen as opposed to the sect or group’s narcissistically-invested belief system. In such dynamics, those who diverge may be scapegoated, and those who deviate or depart may be persecuted as heretics. Individuals with paranoid proclivities are far more readily attracted and susceptible to paranoid demagogues and groups. Paranoid leaders may foment and foster group paranoid reactions among vulnerable individuals. On the other hand, paranoid tendencies may contribute to individuals being vigilant guardians of civil liberty, ever-ready to detect a base of power and threats of exploitation. Feelings of being watched and scrutinized, so commonly seen with paranoid superego regression and externalization, may also have adaptive functions. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/130 "2011-08-31T07:26:41Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > OMD! You too??!! > > Plus, I am impressed that you know the way to San Jose. I’ve been away so long. I may go wrong and lose my way. Just make sure to turn left at Albuquerque. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/131 "2011-08-31T10:31:31Z")
If the OP can explain why she doesn’t believe in Zeus, I’ll be happy to explain why I don’t believe in God. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/132 "2011-08-31T11:16:09Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I believe in the Holy Trinity of Bugs, Daffy and Elmer myself. I’m a firm Elmerite myself. Yea verily, for He hath promised His true followers a million dollars, a mansion and a yacht. > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I will never not believe the sky is florb. Hence the old rhyme: _Florb sky at morning Faithful take warning Florb sky at night Set heretics alight_ ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/133 "2011-08-31T11:34:14Z")
> [@strugglingChristian](#): > > These are the types my posts refer to. It’s illogical to me to discuss something you believe does not exist so fervently. And then go on to repeat that it does not exist and berate anyone who disagrees with you. I really believe it has a cause. There’s anger and frustration behind it. Someone said earlier it’s more characteristic of new atheists. This is the second post I’ve seen here and I am brand new, where the same people do not wish to even discuss the question asked, they wish to derail into a God debate. > It puzzles me. Seems a tremendous waste of time. Why does it always have to be the same derailment? Why not just create a post where you fight believers or do the ‘pit’? Is it that noone will engage them elsewhere? Who opened this thread again? Why would you bother to engage in debate with people about something that you know in your heart to be true? I think there’s doubt and insecurity there. What we are observing is the typical religionist who experiences the gnawing sensation of doubt in the back of his or her mind and the feelings of anxiety associated with such existential threats. A common response to these feelings is to project them on to others who are seen by the religionist as different and alien. Having done this, they can close off the internal threat by combating the external “others.” It helps to imbue the “others” with negative connotations, like suggesting that they are angry and frustrated, suggesting that they are paranoid and always itching for a fight, believing that they are always on the attack, and characterizing them as unwavering adherents to their own form of religion. The very act itself becomes a reification of the sense of belonging as a religionist; “I threw down the challenge to the unbelievers and my own identity escaped intact. Praise the Lord!” ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/134 "2011-08-31T11:35:30Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > “Rabbit season!” > “Duck season!” > “Rabbit season!” > “Duck season!” > > See, this is why atheists debate Christians. Who knew this was going to turn into a discussion of Looney Tunes? “We must follow the shoe!” “No, we must follow the gourd!” “It’s not a shoe, its a sandal!” ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/135 "2011-08-31T12:12:10Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > We are not smarter or better informed than they are on a question for which there is no definitive answer. This just makes no sense. It is commonplace for someone smarter or better informed about something to be able to make a better judgment call about that thing, even in the absence of a definitive answer. Your “logic” is ludicrous. Would you say a doctor is not smarter or better informed about your likely ailment because at the time the tests have not been administered to give a definitive answer? Your position defies logic, common experience and behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/136 "2011-08-31T12:46:17Z")
> [@strugglingChristian](#): > > Thank you everyone for your answers, very insightful. So would I be right in saying that it is because Christians engage with you or have control over some aspect of your life that is bothersome? > I understand those of you that say you do not engage. but clearly many do, you only have to look at the ‘spirituality’ section of many websites to see my point. > > But may I make an observation for those who feel besieged by christians, I have tea party evangelical friends who feel besieged by unbelievers (atheists or muslims). And I don’t get it. I’m sorry, I don’t believe either of you that the other is trying to take over and control you. Am I the naive one? No Matter what one believes it is from a human, what ever has ever been written, read,thought, or taught is of humans. So one really believes in some other human. Plus there is separation of Church and State in our constitution to protect State from religions, and religions from State. According to law it is unlawful to ask a person what their religion is…yet people demand to know the religion of a person applying for the job of President or any public official. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/137 "2011-08-31T12:54:07Z")
> [@strugglingChristian](#): > > I should rephrase that. I don’t think the fear is founded. i do think the reaction to that fear has now caused the foundation of that fear to be realized. For instance, my tp friends felt that atheists were out to get them so they joined the tp and are now out to get atheists b4 the atheists get them. So now more atheists are going to be under direct attack and attack back in self defense. > > I apologize if I seem insensitive but I’m a christian married to a muslim and we both have our people telling us that we are out to hurt one another and to fight back when it is clearly not true. The first Christians were in the minority,and survived in spite of that, A lot of problems started with the Crusades,and in the early years those who felt Christianity was taking over the state. Sad..but true..“United we stand, divided we fall”. It was not such a divided country until religion started to interfere with state,from the blue laws etc. If one wants to wonder why our founding fathers had separation of Church and State they just have to look at history and see what happens when one religion tries to conquer the other,by trying to make their beliefs the law for all. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/138 "2011-08-31T13:06:51Z")
> [@strugglingChristian](#): > > This question has actually bugged me for a while but here it is precipitated by the question on God’s moral authority. But for background, I enjoy web cruising and whether on Yahoo answers, CNN comments, or here, I always find atheists commenting on religious stuff. And of course there’s always the rude comments and such and the whole “imaginary” “fairy” “spaghetti monster” descriptives. I always assume these people are just the usual “bad” actors, which are found everywhere, including in christians, who enjoy hurting others and calling them names for some reason that will never make sense to me. > > But in any case, I am puzzled. I don’t believe in many things but for this purpose let’s say I don’t believe in Allah. I don’t discuss Allah. I don’t discuss imaginary things. I know people believe in Allah, I am married to one. We don’t talk about Allah. he believes Allah exists, i don’t. I don’t feel the need to discuss things I don’t believe exist. I’ve never even told him i don’t believe your Allah exists, it would be for me like saying i don’t believe a red purple blue human exists. Like what’s the point? Why am I talking about something that does not exist seriously with someone who believes it does exist? > > So I don’t understand the heated discussions atheists get into with christians about the existence of god or about the Bible. Like seriously, why are you wasting your time on something that does not even exist? I totally understand fantasy, imagination, and fun. But that is never the roots of the discussion. When someone states christians are this and that, I totally get it. Christians did something to piss you off and you’re mad. I get that. That is real. But the heated discussions, the name calling, the theological musings, I really don’t understand. The christians I kinda get they’re thinking if they discuss it they might get a convert and to them they’re talking about a real thing. but the ones who think the christians are imagining things, why are you having a conversation with someone you think is delusional? I’m of a few minds here, so I’m going to break it up a bit: Why debate? Debate is fun and I find it motivating. What I mean by this is when you are in a structured debate (or even an informal one), you should be attempting to put the best possible case forward. That (usually) means that you will have to do research. You will be passionate about the subject and you will try to find answers to rebuttals. In other words, debate provides motivation for researching a subject that you are (usually) interested in. Why discuss things on the intrawebs? That said, as I get older, I find discussions more interesting. I don’t like to feel as though I have to defend a position to the death, so-to-speak. Occasionally, yes (and in fact, there are message boards geared toward that), but at this point in my life, I’m just trying to have a productive discussion. While I feel that I have good reasons for the positions I hold, I’m not ‘married’ to any of them anymore. Why Christianity? I am very interested in religions of all stripes and Christianity in general, primarily because I used to be a Christian. I am also interested in a variety of supernatural beliefs. I was a member of a forum for a year or so in which members professed to be vampires. I’ve read multiple books on UFO’s and discussed various beliefs surrounding it quite often. I used to believe in alien abduction and the like. Basically these sorts of subjects fascinate me and I’m always trying to learn more about them. Do I seek to change people’s minds? Not as much as I used to, I’ll admit. I’ll also admit that I do have a few issues where I am more passionate - such as church state separation or science. The reasons for this is because these sorts of beliefs effect me and my children directly. If a creationist school board is attempting to rip science out of the text book, that’s going to effect my children’s future education. Do I think Christians (or a believer in X) is delusional or irrational? Well, some are - there are people of all sorts of beliefs that fall under these categories. That said, I think the majority of Christians (or believer X) are rational people and are not delusional. I think there are quite a few introspective Christians who have reasons for their beliefs. I may not accept the conclusion for their reasons, but they seem to hold them for rational reasons. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/139 "2011-08-31T13:09:37Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > That’s because Daffy Duck demonstrably does exist. As a fictional character in cartoons. > > Some preacher identified as Jesus probably existed, too. Whether he was or was not the son of a God that may or may not exist is arguable. But the point has been argued here about eleventy bajillion times. It has never been resolved definitively one way or the other, because it is not possible to resolve it definitively one way or the other. This always causes me to wonder why the Psalmist said’ I said you are gods and sons of god, Jesus backed up this idea when accused of blasphemy," It says in your law you are gods, so why do you accuse me of blasphemy because I call god my father, when your fathers did?" I wonder if the word God has had different meanings over the centuries? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681/140 "2011-08-31T13:26:59Z")
> [@strugglingChristian](#): > > But in any case, I am puzzled. I don’t believe in many things but for this purpose let’s say I don’t believe in Allah. I don’t discuss Allah. I don’t discuss imaginary things. I know people believe in Allah, I am married to one. We don’t talk about Allah. he believes Allah exists, i don’t. I don’t feel the need to discuss things I don’t believe exist. I’ve never even told him i don’t believe your Allah exists, it would be for me like saying i don’t believe a red purple blue human exists. Like what’s the point? It’s fine until he orders you to do something because Allah wills it. Not only that, but Allah permits the husband to use force to gain your compliance. At that point you have to make a stand. If you say “I defy Allah” then you’re just going to get a lecture about it. If you say “You’re wrong about what Allah wants” then you’re going to have to psychoanalyze an imaginary bronze-age deity. The easiest and most forceful position to defend is “I’m not playing this game because there is no Allah”. Sure, if there’s no conflict and people aren’t using Allah to force you into anything, live and let live. But there’s no escaping that kind of conflict. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-debate-christians/594681.md?page=8)