# Atheists: WHy do you have such a problem with religion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2003, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598 "2003-07-15T06:11:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/1 "2003-07-15T06:11:03Z")
[This](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=197632) thread has a post by **1kBR Kid** in which he says > [@](#): > > I’ve been a soldier on active duty and in the National Guard. I’m an atheist and I resent the fact that we have men of the cloth on the same payroll. Can you imagine a “Company Preacher” at your civilain job? Now imagine that he outranks you and you have to salute him and call him “Sir”. You also have to be nice when he comes around and preaches to you. I think it’s a fair statement that your lack of belief in religion can almost be considered a religion in and of itself. Your faith in God is nonexistent, but your belief that he doesn’t exist is unifying, is it not? So, why do you have such a problem with your average run-of-the-mill preachers? Not the fundie nuts, mind you- I can’t stand them, either. And why would you have a problem with a “Company Preacher”? Further, what’s wrong with a public prayer? If you don’t believe, it doesn’t mean anything to you, so why be offended by it? Basically, I’m kinda confused by the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Violet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ebca7d/32.png) [@Violet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Violet)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/2 "2003-07-15T06:30:22Z")
I’m shooting at the hip here, but maybe it is a separation of church & state issue. Maybe… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/3 "2003-07-15T06:38:15Z")
I don’t think most atheists really have a problem with it as long as they’re not being proselytized and as long as no one tries to codify their religious beliefs into law. You didn’t define what you meant by “public prayer” but I would say that people praying in public doesn’t bother me a bit but if I’m part of a group or a crowd, and someone attempts to lead that crowd in prayer, it annoys me. This happens at a lot of public functions where it has no place. For example, I think it’s totally inappropriate to have a prayer before a presidential inauguration. That’s supposed to be a purely secular ceremony and it’s supposed to represent all Americans, not just Christians. I don’t like the phrase “under God” being slipped into the Pledge of Allegiance, I don’t want “in God we trust” on money. I don’t want to pay a chaplain to open congress with a prayer every day. Basically I just don’t want to be included and there is often a subtle coercion to go along with stuff like that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/4 "2003-07-15T06:38:21Z")
Y’know, there are a lot of gods I don’t believe in, such as Thor, Zeus, Odin, Saturn, the Christian god, the Jewish god, etc. ad infinitum. Now, is this _one_ religion I supposedly believe in, or an infinite number of religions that I am following all at the same time? **Airman Doors, USAF** , how many of these “religions” do you ascribe to, and how do you ever keep them all straight? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/5 "2003-07-15T06:44:52Z")
For me its not religion per say that I have a problem with. Its the fact that religion is based on so little physical evidence yet is touted as an undeniable truth by the vast majority and atheists are generally looked on as wrong for not believing it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/6 "2003-07-15T06:48:15Z")
The idea of atheism being a religion is just silly. If you are playing a game of Monopoly and ask me to play, and I refuse, would you say that I am playing a game of Not-Monopoly? ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/7 "2003-07-15T06:54:40Z")
How would you feel if you had to salute the Power puff girls? How would you feel if you had to pray to [or watching others pray to] the green and orange polka dotted maki? Not offended, I guess. But feeling you’re waisting your time. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/8 "2003-07-15T07:06:52Z")
> [@](#): > > I think it’s a fair statement that your lack of belief in religion can almost be considered a religion in and of itself. You’re flat-out wrong. Look at any definition of religion. This is from [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com): > [@](#): > > 1. a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. > b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. > 2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. > 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. > 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. In no way does atheism fit any of those definitions. It’s an opinion on ONE particular subject: the existence of god. > [@](#): > > Your faith in God is nonexistent, but your belief that he doesn’t exist is unifying, is it not? Nope. Buddhists are atheists, and I’m not a Buddhist (though I’ve borrowed from them a little bit here and there). There are all manner of atheistic faiths. Theism is not a religion, it’s a category into which many religions, faiths, etc. fall. Ditto atheism. > [@](#): > > So, why do you have such a problem with your average run-of-the-mill preachers? Unless you’re attempting to ask only atheists who have problems with religion or 'run of the mill preachers, you’re overgeneralizing. > [@](#): > > Further, what’s wrong with a public prayer? If you don’t believe, it doesn’t mean anything to you, so why be offended by it? Meh. I could say “You believe in god anyway, so why pray? Why pray out loud? None of that should make any difference.” Then I could go into a lot of stuff about the ‘divine plan.’ But then we’d get nowhere. I think **Diogenes** covered the real answer very nicely - I can’t stand being proselytized at, and since I’ve had to deal with that from time to time since I became an atheist (and nearly all atheists do). As such, I’m rather sensitive to it, and quick to snap at people who do it to me. Perhaps I’m oversensitive at times. But most people who are religious don’t seem to feel ashamed for it. As such, I’m not ashamed of not believing in god and not having a religion. Whenever it comes up in conversation, I say how I feel about the subjects in question. I think for whatever reason - and I’m basing this just on my own observations - when religion comes up, the atheists in the crowd are expected to shut up and not voice disagreements if they have any, so I make sure to ignore that custom. Do I have a problem with religion itself? Eh. I probably do, but it’s not unlike the problems I have with people smoking, for example: I’m turned off by it, but I don’t think you should be stopped from doing it, and we’re fine as long as you keep it off me because it’ll make me ill. (;)) And I’ll crack jokes about it when I want to, just like I will about any other topic. My definitions of politeness aren’t 100% the same as everybody else’s, but I find a medium with the people who matter. ---
**Author:** ![Wake\_up\_call](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dec6dc/32.png) [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/9 "2003-07-15T07:17:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > \*\* > Further, what’s wrong with a public prayer? If you don’t believe, it doesn’t mean anything to you, so why be offended by it? > \*\* Try American Airline flight from JFK to Zurich, with a connecting flight to Tel Aviv. Invariably, there are at least 60 Hassidic jewish guys on board. Every now and then, they get up from their seats as a group and go at the back of the plane. There, they start their prayer ritual of humming and bending back-and-forth against the toilet door. Now, that doesn’t offend me. But the “Fasten Seat Belt” sign is on, the plane is going to land, and they do not even listen to the pilot and the flight attendants’ repeated instructions to take their seats. That is outright dangerous to the other passengers. And if the “Fasten Seat Belt” sign is not on, forget about access to the toilets. Now, I say there is something wrong with this kind of public prayer. ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/10 "2003-07-15T07:21:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > \*\* > > I think it’s a fair statement that your lack of belief in religion can almost be considered a religion in and of itself. Your faith in God is nonexistent, but your belief that he doesn’t exist is unifying, is it not? > > \*\* My atheism is a religion in the sense that baldness is a hair colour. Its not. My ‘problem’ with religion is its superstitious mumbo jumbo, but at the end of the day I cant get too excited over it and really dont care what silliness people believe in as long as its harmless and they don’t try and ram it down my throat on both of which counts the religious often fail. I don’t go round knocking on mormon doors telling them my claptrap and I wish they wouldn’t come a-knocking on mine telling me theirs. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/11 "2003-07-15T07:53:38Z")
Many atheists only have a problem with religion when religion forces itself into the government, either through taxpayer-funded religious services or laws based on religious morality that have no compelling secular reason to exist. Plus, of course, atheists dislike the raving religious loonies that make up a small percentage of religious people, but everyone dislikes them. However, there are other atheists who have a problem with religion in general. Some of them would like nothing more than for religion to disappear entirely from the world overnight. There are many reasons for this. I don’t want to put words into anybody’s mouth, but I suspect the most common reasons for this attitude come from the following: [ul] [li]Belief that religious thinking causes actual harm (as opposed to being merely pointless). For example, children who die because their parents refuse to give them modern medical treatments.[/li][li]Belief that religious thinking clouds the mind. If people routinely accept non-scientific explanations for some things, there is the fear that they will sometimes accept non-scientific explanations for things which clearly have an excellent scientific explanation. E.g., Young-Earth Creationism as an alternative to evolution.[/li][li]Religion has been used as an excuse or cover or protector for countless atrocities. Everything from wars to the pedophile priests scandal could be included in this.[/li][/ul] I strongly suspect there are many more atheists of the first type than the second, although I don’t know that for a fact. As for public prayer, it doesn’t bother me so long as it’s not publicly _funded_ prayer, or prayer to a captive audience such as a classroom of public school children. That is, it is not prayer per se that would bother me, it is particular methods of proselytizing that bother me. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/12 "2003-07-15T08:10:33Z")
Atheist citizens should not be taxed to pay the salaries of Catholic clergy. Catholic citizens should not be taxed to support Hindu temples. Hindu citizens should not be taxed to support Protestant missionaries. Protestant citizens should not be taxed to pay for the publication of atheistic tracts. This is a pretty well-established principle of government in this country. If the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment means anything at all, it surely means that Congress cannot put clergymen, as clergymen, on the public payroll. Yet taxpayer-supported chaplains do just that. (I’ve posted in the past on how _I_ think the question of the “religious needs” of active-duty servicemembers should be accomodated; see [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1842175#post1842175) in an old SOCAS thread.) In general, I suspect a lot of atheists would be a lot more indifferent to organized religion if they didn’t feel like it was being forced on them or they were being forced to support it. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/13 "2003-07-15T08:23:58Z")
I just like the thread title. Here’s another suggestion: **Atheists: When will you stop beating your wives?** 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/14 "2003-07-15T10:19:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > **So, why do you have such a problem with your average run-of-the-mill preachers? Not the fundie nuts, mind you- I can’t stand them, either. And why would you have a problem with a “Company Preacher”?** Would you have a problem with a Shintoist minister outranking you and coming to preach Shinto to you? If not, would you have a problem with a Voodoo doctor doing the same? A representative of Thor the God of Thunder? Would you mind a witch doctor from New Guinea leading your company in jumping up and down, hooping and swinging your dicks? > [@](#): > > **Further, what’s wrong with a public prayer? If you don’t believe, it doesn’t mean anything to you, so why be offended by it?** People can pray in public as much as they like; it’s no skin off my nose. But if they want me to join, or worse, expect me to join, screw 'em. If I’m in the military, I don’t want my company to pray. If I’m at work, I don’t want work to stop for a prayer. They’re religious; fine, I can’t stop them. Just don’t get me involved, waste my time, or hinder me or the flow or society. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/15 "2003-07-15T10:25:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > If you don’t believe, it doesn’t mean anything to you, so why be offended by it? So if someone tells you your mother gives blowjobs for $7.50 you would not be offended? I mean, you don’t believe it so why be offended? If a bunch of guys in the military want to go and worship on their own free time I do not have a problem with that but if the government endorses it then yes, I do have a problem with it. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/16 "2003-07-15T10:27:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by treis \* > For me its not religion per say that I have a problem with. You don’t say! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/17 "2003-07-15T10:29:33Z")
Absence of belief is itself a belief: Logically, belief that it is not the case that God exists -(E G) is equivalent to believing that not-God exists E(-G). However, a _religion_ is characterised by a system of beliefs involving some aspect of worship or devotion. So, I accept that my atheism is a belief, _ie._ a personal ascription of probability of what is or is not the case. But a _religion_, surely not. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/18 "2003-07-15T10:44:08Z")
B(¬G) != ¬B(G) pan ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/19 "2003-07-15T11:11:01Z")
**sailor** , actually, it’s more like $10, but you were close. 😉 So, upon reading this, I note that I am thoroughly wrong. Not a surprise, but there you go. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/20 "2003-07-15T11:13:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > **sailor, actually, it’s more like $10, but you were close. 😉** Mine charges $20 if she takes her false teeth out. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598.md?page=2)