# Atheists: WHy do you have such a problem with religion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2003, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598 "2003-07-15T06:11:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/81 "2003-07-16T17:43:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Basically, I believe the decision should be left up to the military as to where and when to station chaplains of various denominations, not up to the legislature. Under most interpretations, the FA covers all government institutions, which should include the military. If we are really talking about free exercise, then it should be the people receiving services who determine what chaplains they need where, not the military’s command structure. And their salaries as chaplains should be paid by those who want services, or want to pay for soldier’s services. But then, the military seems to have leeway to summarily strip people of their normal Constitutional rights in many situations, so maybe it’s a different ballgame. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Dickerson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Scott\_Dickerson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Dickerson)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/82 "2003-07-16T18:42:43Z")
MARLEY23– “…Thanks, Susma. As always, you’ve provided a cryptic answer that doesn’t make a lot of sense. Care to elaborate or anything?..” Maybe Susma was the one person who picked up on the idea elaborated in my lengthy prior post that “Witnessing Atheists” do in fact have some characteristics in common with “Witnessing Fundies.” (I’ve noticed that the good Susma is all too frequently flamed before he is even engaged–or even, alas, read.) I know irony is passe in the 00’s, but even in the SDMB? Sheesh! (a reference to Sheesh, goddess of flagrant irony.) ---
**Author:** ![Tygr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/df788c/32.png) [@Tygr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tygr)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/83 "2003-07-16T18:51:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priceguy \* > **I disagree that there is evidence of a benevolent creator if Occam’s Razor is taken into consideration.** Eh? Are you saying that a billion years of random protein molecule alignment is the simple solution? I thought someone said **religion** went for the easy answers. Doesn’t that mean that the razor would favor it? > [@](#): > > …the military seems to have leeway to summarily strip people of their normal Constitutional rights in many situations… Of course it does. Giving up those rights is part of the deal when you sign up. F’r instance, free speech: you lose the right to tell your C.O. to go piss up a rope. ---
**Author:** ![GodlessSkeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GodlessSkeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GodlessSkeptic)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/84 "2003-07-16T19:03:27Z")
Minor nitpick Sentient Meat but atheism IS skepticism. **Localised** skepticism._Strong_ or _positive_ atheism is the belief that no gods exist while the more common _weak_ atheism is simply lack of conviction that gods exist. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/85 "2003-07-16T19:56:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Of course it does. Giving up those rights is part of the deal when you sign up. F’r instance, free speech: you lose the right to tell your C.O. to go piss up a rope. Okay, so then does the military have the right to take away your ability to freely pratice your religion too? Couldn’t your C.O. order you to piss on a crucifix or some other blasphemous act? I doubt it, and obviously the specifics have to be worked out. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/86 "2003-07-16T20:13:10Z")
If irony is passe, nobody told me. After reading a lot of Susma’s posts, I find that most of them read like that. Irony ain’t got a thing to do with it. **Robertliguori** , if it makes you feel better, I figured out what you were trying to say last night. Unfortunately, it was while I was laying in bed and long after my second post. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![GodlessSkeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GodlessSkeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GodlessSkeptic)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/87 "2003-07-16T20:35:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tygr \* > \*\*Eh? Are you saying that a billion years of random protein molecule alignment is the simple solution? \*\* ‘Random protein molecule’ alignment?Where do you guys get this stuff??The three most basic elements were formed in the big bang.Stars, planets etc. formed later.In the cores of red dwarf stars, these basic elements combined to form more complex elements(Example:helium + helium = berylium, helium + berylium = carbon) and these more complex elements are dispersed throughout the galaxies in which these reactions occur.Within super novae, the rest of the elements in the periodic table are created from the intense heat and collisions of these “second tier” elements. There is nothing “random” about it unless you are defining random as “Not requiring a supreme intelligence to occur”. Before you even get into teh “Can something come from nothing?” or the “uncaused cause” arguments I will direct you towards the posititron-electron pairs which emerge from a vacuum and “blink” out of existence, apparently uncaused. Apologies for any mistakes in the above as astronomy is not something I am an expert in(far from it). > [@](#): > > \*\*I thought someone said **religion** went for the easy answers. Doesn’t that mean that the razor would favor it?Of course it does. \*\* Wrong.You have a misconception of Occam’s razor.OR states that we do not _unecessarily multiply our entities for explanation_.Not that we “choose whatever sounds simplest to us”.Otherwise “An efreet lives in my toaster and chars bread according to my wishes” would be the correct explanation for how my bread becomes toasted. > [@](#): > > \*\* Giving up those rights is part of the deal when you sign up. F’r instance, free speech: you lose the right to tell your C.O. to go piss up a rope. \*\* You do not give up rights to free speech when you join the miliary.In the case of whether you can walk up and insult your C.O. to his face, you simply agree not to engage in such deconstructive behavior when you sign up. It is similar to the yelling “FIRE!” in a crowded theatre analogy.We all have the right to say “Fire” pretty much wherever we want.Our freedom of speech is not violated because we are not allowed to incite riots or panics by screaming things in a theatre.You are not allowed to yell ANYTHING in a theatre, crowded or not but this has nothing to do with freedom of speech. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/88 "2003-07-17T01:20:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Are you saying that a billion years of random protein molecule alignment is the simple solution? As opposed to a being who must, by his nature, be more complex than whatever he designs, and thus even MORE demanding of an explanation? Luckily, I have no idea what you mean by “random protein alignment” and I don’t know anyone else who’s proffered that as an explanation of anything. ---
**Author:** ![macabresoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e68b1a/32.png) [@macabresoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/macabresoul)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/89 "2003-07-17T01:41:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Many soldiers get a psychological benefit from having a chaplain in their unit. As long as the chaplain’s presence increases the net moral of the soldiers in a cost effective way (something difficult to measure) then I see no reason to stop the practice. Yea General Hooker felt the same way about booze and, well, hookers. Just because his brothel increased morale abound, doesn’t mean it was the best way to do it. How is spending government money to enforce religion in a public institution, while persecuting people who don’t conform to the religion to work duty, cost effective. It’s easy to measure… Does the cost outweigh the benefit. Does breaking the constitution for morale of, lets say 70% of the total soldiers that are christian, outweigh the cost of alienating/ostrasizing the 15-20% of athiests (and religions not recognized in the service). I’m just making up numbers here… but does the cost _really_outweigh the benifit? > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Priceguy > I’ve heard this said a trillion times, but never before by an atheist, and I’ll never understand it if I live to be a trillion years old. > > I live in a world where sunlight turns into wine. > I live in a world where man has walked on the moon. > I live in a world where I can see stars the way they were thousands of years ago. > I live in a world where we know what quarks are up to. > I live in a world where humans replicate the mechanisms of the stars themselves. > I live in a world where my eyes work, where bats “see” through sound, where squids change colour in the blink of an eye, where eels can emit electric shocks, where fish shine in the dark, where whales can dive three kilometres holding their breath for ninety minutes, where turtles breathe with their butts… and all of this just happened. > > If that isn’t bright and beautiful, I don’t know what is. The universe is an amazing, beautiful, fascinating, indescribable, unfathomable, extraordinary place, and I emphatically do not need to invent some imaginary father figure to make it so. Never said by an athiest because it’s pretty pointless. Saying anything is beautiful is a matter of perception. Just because you percieve something to be 'bright and beautiful doesn’t mean everybody/everything else feels the same way. While I guess the end paragraph is propagating athiesm, it’s a weak argument and doesn’t prove anything. > [@](#): > > Part of it is a persecution complex. Part of it is feeling superiority to all of you foolish believers. But you remember how you felt when you found out there was no Santa Clause? Take that feeling, and multiply it by lots. Many atheists exist in a state of permanent pissed-offedness due to the failure of the universe to be as bright and beautiful as they were told it was. no, it should read, “ **A couple** of athiests exist in a state of permanent pised-offedness…” You shouldn’t assimilate YOUR experience to every other athiest in the world. You set up unreasonable expectations for the world and people around you. Anything you do this, you are more than likely going to get let down. You have to learn to adapt to the ever changing world, not hold a grudge and resent everybody else. > [@](#): > > There are atheists who have exactly the same kind of personality as Fundamentalist Christians or Fundamentalist Muslims. > > Susma Rio Sep What a profound zen like comment. Too bad it proves nothing except every group has bad apples. This comment doesn’t even go along with the subject at hand… no one is discussing fundamentalists in this thread. what a pointless and stupid drive by. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/90 "2003-07-17T01:43:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tygr \* > **Eh? Are you saying that a billion years of random protein molecule alignment is the simple solution?** If you want to argue over evolution, don’t be shy- go present some evidence in the other thread. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/91 "2003-07-17T03:41:13Z")
> [@](#): > > what a pointless and stupid drive by. For a person that managed to misread virtually every post he quotes, I’m not sure you have much to crow about. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![macabresoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e68b1a/32.png) [@macabresoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/macabresoul)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/92 "2003-07-17T04:58:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*For a person that managed to misread virtually every post he quotes, I’m not sure you have much to crow about. 🙂 \*\* Thanks, your approval means a lot to me. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/93 "2003-07-17T06:19:49Z")
Airman. My problems with the religious involve their attempts to gain secular power. Every religion I know of has done it and will do it again if given the chance. This isn’t an evil conspiracy of some sort, simply people wanting to remain in power or expand their influence. Very similar to politicians. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![Swoop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Swoop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swoop)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/94 "2003-07-17T12:39:55Z")
Religion is evil! EVIL! ok seriously… it is. Unfortunately the majority of the (world) population is too immersed in it to stand back and objectively realise just what a mess they’re a part of. The ones that do/can are told to pipe down and pretend like everything is hunky dory and perfectly acceptable (or, argue tediously ridiculous arguments ad nauseum). Viewing religion as a complex meme (I forget the term for a major meme collection) helps to clarify things. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598/95 "2003-07-17T13:02:42Z")
[This:](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3074245.stm) Is also one of the reasons why I have problems with religion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-why-do-you-have-such-a-problem-with-religion/188598.md?page=4)