# Atheists: Would you \*prefer\* that a god exist or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 6, 2019, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-would-you-prefer-that-a-god-exist-or-not/839793 "2019-09-06T15:47:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![mjmlabs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mjmlabs/32/69_2.png) [@mjmlabs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmlabs)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-would-you-prefer-that-a-god-exist-or-not/839793/101 "2019-09-13T22:54:08Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > For clarification: It was hard to set the parameters in my OP. I wanted atheists to be able to define a god as they wanted (i.e., “I want a god who operates according to my ideas of justice and what is fair and right,”) but at the same time, I wanted to filter out the sillier posts such as “I want a god who gives me the winning Powerball numbers, caters to my whims, gives me yachts and legions of fans, makes me the best martinis, etc.” > Edit: Basically, you are free to define such a god as you like, in this thread, but don’t turn the thread frivolous. Right. I don’t think it unreasonable for a posited divinity to be congruent with the morality of whosoever is doing the positing. If there were a god whose Prime Directive (for her/his/it-self, and for we baser folk) were “Hey, don’t be a jerk,” sure, that’s a god this atheist could welcome. I find it odd that this position seems unexpected. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-would-you-prefer-that-a-god-exist-or-not/839793/102 "2019-09-13T22:57:56Z")
> [@mjmlabs](#): > > Right. I don’t think it unreasonable for a posited divinity to be congruent with the morality of whosoever is doing the positing. > > If there were a god whose Prime Directive (for her/his/it-self, and for we baser folk) were “Hey, don’t be a jerk,” sure, that’s a god this atheist could welcome. I find it odd that this position seems unexpected. It’s unexpected because it’s usually presumed that a god has some level of power to enforce its wishes. If a god wished that people weren’t jerks as much, it would be able to institute “universal modding” and ban people who break that rule. With lightning bolts. The absence of such bolts tells us things. Like, “God isn’t bothered by Trump enough to do something about him” kinds of things. ---
**Author:** ![mjmlabs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mjmlabs/32/69_2.png) [@mjmlabs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmlabs)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-would-you-prefer-that-a-god-exist-or-not/839793/103 "2019-09-13T23:09:50Z")
Why do I feel like I’m arguing that the Pope is Catholic? We all know the difference between reality and supposition/imagination, yes? My imaginary god does not exist in this current reality. He/It/She exists only in my imagination. Those were the ground rules. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-would-you-prefer-that-a-god-exist-or-not/839793/104 "2019-09-13T23:22:06Z")
> [@mjmlabs](#): > > Why do I feel like I’m arguing that the Pope is Catholic? We all know the difference between reality and supposition/imagination, yes? My imaginary god does not exist in this current reality. He/It/She exists only in my imagination. Those were the ground rules. Hey, you _asked_. It’s a basic fact that most atheists have long been conditioned to think of gods as ones that could, in at least the most tenuous of theories, coexist with reality. Which necessarily means they’re not omnimax - specifically it means that the god must be hostile or apathetic to humans, or impotent. We’re _really_ used to thinking this about gods, so the notion that an undefined god is likely _nice_ isn’t where our minds tend to go. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-would-you-prefer-that-a-god-exist-or-not/839793/105 "2019-09-14T01:12:21Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I didn’t say “human free will”. I said “free will”. You adding “human” to the term is you setting up a strawman to knock down - can’t you see that? > > You are deciding which definitions you want to use, which is fair - you do you. I’m just saying that I recognize definitions of “free will” and “choice” which are compatible with determinism. Which, if you’ll think about it for a moment, you’ll realize also automatically makes them compatible with both omniscience and also omnibenevolence. And, since I assess omnipotence through the lens of those definitions, means that just because I don’t _choose_ to swear at you, doesn’t meant that I’m not _capable_ of swearing at you. Determinism is a product of natural laws. If a God is not constrained by natural laws - and he must not be - then his actions do not have to be deterministic, and God has free will. Unless you think that the concept of free will is logically impossible, then a god with free will is greater than a god without it, and the god without it is not God. That’s why I assumed you were talking about human free will. Now I’ll agree a bi-omni god has no choice. Which is the problem, since you can conceive of a possible world with a god which has choice, which makes that god more omnipotent - absurd term, I agree - than our God. I don’t know what definition of God you’re using, but the standard one has God being the greatest, which a god without choice isn’t. If never using the big big D is a fundamental part of the definition of your identity, swearing destroys that identity, and so not swearing is not a choice but something which if done changes your identity. Choice makes sense for certain aspects of God’s personality. One might think that god does not lie to us, and he not want to lie and not lie, but if he does lie he is still god, so no problem. (Lying isn’t incompatible with omnibenevolence.) But if omnibenevolence is a fundamental part of the definition of God, God cannot do something to reduce happiness or he is no longer god by this definition. We may want to drink water or some other liquid to live - but it is not just a matter of want, since if we don’t drink water we do not live. We must drink water. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-would-you-prefer-that-a-god-exist-or-not/839793/106 "2019-09-14T01:17:55Z")
> [@mjmlabs](#): > > Right. I’m as fallible as anyone, and more so at times. But by addressing the query specifically and exclusively to those who are convinced that this reality is deity-free (inexplicable “I am not an atheist” poll-response option notwithstanding), OP is posing a thought experiment. You don’t have to be convinced to be an atheist, you just have to lack any conviction that there is a god. I personally am reasonably convinced, but am open to be proven wrong. Not that I’m holding my breath until that happens. BTW, I see join date of 2003 and 43 posts. Welcome back! ---
**Author:** ![mjmlabs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mjmlabs/32/69_2.png) [@mjmlabs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmlabs)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-would-you-prefer-that-a-god-exist-or-not/839793/107 "2019-09-14T02:49:34Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > You don’t have to be convinced to be an atheist, you just have to lack any conviction that there is a god. I personally am reasonably convinced, but am open to be proven wrong. > Not that I’m holding my breath until that happens. Fair enough. “Sufficiently convinced,” then? Myself, I use Douglas Adams’s term “radical atheist,” or, as he put it (IIRC), " Yes I really have thought about it and no I don’t mean ‘agnostic’ and I’m not about to change my mind so please just leave it at that, thank you" (or words to that effect.) I guess I presumed that anyone who self-identified as an atheist enough to take part would consider themselves “convinced,” but I may have jumped to that conclusion. > [@](#): > > BTW, I see join date of 2003 and 43 posts. Welcome back! Thanks. More of a zombie membership, though; first post was earlier this week. (I’ve been busy. You know how it can get.) ---
**Author:** ![mjmlabs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mjmlabs/32/69_2.png) [@mjmlabs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmlabs)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-would-you-prefer-that-a-god-exist-or-not/839793/108 "2019-09-14T02:56:13Z")
Lookit that, the Google knew [the exact words](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/871340-if-you-describe-yourself-as-atheist-some-people-will-say), to the exact effect: > [@](#): > > If you describe yourself as “Atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘Agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean Atheist. I really do not believe that there is a god - in fact I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one. It’s easier to say that I am a radical Atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously. It’s funny how many people are genuinely surprised to hear a view expressed so strongly. In England we seem to have drifted from vague wishy-washy Anglicanism to vague wishy-washy Agnosticism - both of which I think betoken a desire not to have to think about things too much. > > ― Douglas Adams ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-would-you-prefer-that-a-god-exist-or-not/839793/109 "2019-09-14T03:06:59Z")
I am also reasonably confident there wasn’t a Jesus either. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-would-you-prefer-that-a-god-exist-or-not/839793/110 "2019-09-14T07:38:39Z")
> [@mjmlabs](#): > > Lookit that, the Google knew [the exact words](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/871340-if-you-describe-yourself-as-atheist-some-people-will-say), to the exact effect: Adams of course is 100% correct. Saying “I really do not believe that there is a god” makes you an atheist, whether or not you believe a god does not exist. A good example of the concept is belief that there are aliens out there. I lack belief in any particular type of ET, seeing no evidence, but I certainly don’t believe that they don’t exist in general. And I’m not agnostic about this - while I probably will never get to see evidence of them, it is possible that evidence will be detected some day. ---
**Author:** ![mjmlabs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mjmlabs/32/69_2.png) [@mjmlabs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmlabs)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-would-you-prefer-that-a-god-exist-or-not/839793/111 "2019-09-14T08:15:13Z")
> [@mjmlabs](#): > > I’d probably enjoy hanging out with a god like the Big Lebowski. Can’t believe nobody called me out on that. :eek: The **Big** Lebowski would be neither divine nor fun to hang with. Jeff _“The Dude”_ Lebowski, clearly, was what I should have said. :smack: I was very un-Dude there. Can’t worry about that sh!t, though. 🆒 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-would-you-prefer-that-a-god-exist-or-not/839793.md?page=5)