# Athiesm is not a religion. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2000, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098 "2000-12-24T16:46:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kaleidoskope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b782af/32.png) [@kaleidoskope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaleidoskope)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2000, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098/21 "2000-12-26T04:13:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Wrong. Atheism is not a belief about god. The whole point of atheism is that it isn’t a belief about anything. It is the lack of a belief in a god. Actually, I believe “agnosticism” is the term for the lack of a belief in a god. Atheists are people who actively and vehemently deny the existance of a god. ---
**Author:** ![porcupine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac91a4/32.png) [@porcupine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/porcupine)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2000, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098/22 "2000-12-26T04:19:42Z")
**kaleidoskope** , Sorry, I believe this is incorrect. I have always understood the distinctions as follows: Weak atheist have no belief in god. Strong atheists deny the existence of god. Agnostics don’t believe that it’s possbible to know if god exists. I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JDM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/90db22/32.png) [@JDM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDM)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2000, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098/23 "2000-12-26T04:35:24Z")
First, the best Christmas movie is the “Scrooge” with Alastair Sim. Second, and I know this is old news, but it’s spelt ATHEISM. Third, the fact that a-theism is a word “about” theism does not make it a separate entity. The basic state is not theism, it is, as far as religion is concerned, a “tabula rasa.” You must add a belief to the basic state in order to have “theism.” Thus “A-theism” is a return to the basic state, that is, without the added theism. It is not the same as saying “There is a God, and I do not believe in Him.” I can see that from a theistic point of view you might want to believe otherwise, as any faith system might want to consider itself the basic state, but sorry, that’s incorrect. (I do remember some 4:30 AM very high discussions that went "The absence of X=[notX] therefore if you take [notX] to be, ummm, ummm, hey are you gonna eat that?) Lastly, I can agree with the OP that, as a “basic state” person, I will usually discuss, but not prosthelytize (sp???) my lack of an imposed theism. I figure that life is hard enough, and if you need a “higher power,” then I shouldn’t knock your crutches away. JDM ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2000, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098/24 "2000-12-26T13:04:07Z")
kaleidoskope said: > [@](#): > > Actually, I believe “agnosticism” is the term for the lack of a belief in a god. Atheists are people who actively and vehemently deny the existance of a god. Wrong. Agnostics do not think that the existence of a god can be known either way. Since you’re new, might I suggest doing a search and taking a quick look at the numerous threads that have previously discussed this very issue? (Heck, there are apparently some not-so-new folks who should do the same thing.) ---
**Author:** ![Fatwater\_Fewl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@Fatwater\_Fewl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fatwater_Fewl)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2000, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098/25 "2000-12-26T14:21:02Z")
In the end, of course, it comes down to belief. Personally, I don’t believe atheism is a religion. It is a way of looking at the world, one which ultimately places peoples’ responsibilty for their actions upon their own shoulders. Which is not a bad thing, is it? Decide for yourselves. a·the·ist (th-st) n. One that disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods. Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition Copyright © 1996, 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. * * * atheist \A"the\*ist, n. [Gr. ? without god; 'a priv. + ? god: cf. F. ath['e]iste.] 1. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being. 1. A godless person. [Obs.] Syn: Infidel; unbeliever. Note: See Infidel. Source: Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. * * * atheist adj : related to or characterized by or given to atheism; “atheist leanings” [syn: atheistic, atheistical] n : someone who denies the existence of god Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University * * * a·the·ism (th-zm) n. disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. The doctrine that there is no God or gods. Godlessness; immorality. * * * ## [French athéisme, from athée, atheist, from Greek atheos, godless: a-, without; see a-1 + theos, god; see dhs- in Indo-European Roots.] Pronunciation Key Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition Copyright © 1996, 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. * * * atheism n 1: the doctrine or belief that there is no God [syn: godlessness] [ant: theism] 2: a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University * * * re·lig·ion (r-ljn) n. Abbr. rel., relig. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. A cause, a principle, or an activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. Idioms: get religion Informal To accept a higher power as a controlling influence for the good in one’s life. * * * ## [Middle English religioun, from Old French religion, from Latin religi, religin- perhaps from religre, to tie fast; see rely.] Pronunciation Key Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition Copyright © 1996, 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. * * * religion \Re\*li"gion\ (r[-e]\*l[i^]j"[u^]n), n. [F., from L. religio; cf. religens pious, revering the gods, Gr. 'ale`gein to heed, have a care. Cf. Neglect.] 1. The outward act or form by which men indicate their recognition of the existence of a god or of gods having power over their destiny, to whom obedience, service, and honor are due; the feeling or expression of human love, fear, or awe of some superhuman and overruling power, whether by profession of belief, by observance of rites and ceremonies, or by the conduct of life; a system of faith and worship; a manifestation of piety; as, ethical religions; monotheistic religions; natural religion; revealed religion; the religion of the Jews; the religion of idol worshipers. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2000, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098/26 "2000-12-26T14:34:54Z")
A. This an old, tired non-argument. B. If any of y’all had bothered to investigate the etmologies of the two terms, you would have learned that agnostic comes from the Greek “a” = “no” and “gnosis” = “knowledge”; atheist comes from “a” and “theos” = “god.” So an agnostic has no knowledge pro or con of the existence of God, and an atheist denies the existence of God (or gods, for that matter.) C. The best christmas movie is “White Christmas,” featuring the avuncular Bing Crosby, the effervescent Danny Kaye, the terpsichorean Vera Ellen, and the scintillating Rosemary Clooney. ---
**Author:** ![lucie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed8c4c/32.png) [@lucie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucie)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2000, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098/27 "2000-12-26T16:34:36Z")
for more fun and information on agnosticism (and by extention, why it differs from atheism), check out this site. (warning - there is some humor on this site, although there is a lot of good and interesting info) If you are wondering whether you are an agnostic or an atheist, it might help you out: [http://www.uctaa.org/](http://www.uctaa.org/) ---
**Author:** ![Phobos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Phobos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phobos)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2000, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098/28 "2000-12-26T18:17:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > \*\* > But if I have 0 apples, does that mean I have some apples? \*\* It does for very large values of 0. 🙂 my vote: atheism = belief, not religion. A religion requires all kind of structure and leaders and tenets, etc. So, in a more general sense, I may also define atheism as a concerted lack of spirituality. A good agnostic may share some of the same traits, but acknowledges that you can’t be sure one way or the other (and may have some sense of spirituality). my other vote: I dunno about my fav xmas special, but I know that Rudolph is getting pretty boring after all these years. Although I did enjoy the new claymation parody that was shown this year…anyone remember the name? It was Rudolph’s son trying out for the sleigh team? Very funny. British humor kinda thing. ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2000, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098/29 "2000-12-26T19:28:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by goboy \* > \*\*If any of y’all had bothered to investigate the etmologies of the two terms, you would have learned that agnostic comes from the Greek “a” = “no” and “gnosis” = “knowledge”; atheist comes from “a” and “theos” = “god.” So an agnostic has no knowledge pro or con of the existence of God, and an atheist denies the existence of God (or gods, for that matter.) > \*\* In laymen’s terms, you may be right, but when we are actually having a philosophical discussion it is not enough to use simplistic definitions. “Curfew” no longer means we have to put out our fires for the night, even if the etymology suggests so. Heck, there has been lots of discussion of the difference in meaning between the formal definition of “theory” used in science as opposed to the lay definition. Especially in GD, the distinction between “belief against” and “lack of belief” is an important one. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2000, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098/30 "2000-12-26T22:59:00Z")
Ok David B, since your so dense ill explain it to you:) By your logic there is no name for atheism since it is simply a lack of belief in a god. However atheism does have a name so a direct comparison cannot be made. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098/31 "2000-12-27T01:49:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > \*\*Wrong. Atheism is not a belief about god. The whole point of atheism is that it isn’t a belief about _anything_. It is the lack of a belief in a god. > > By your illogic, everything would be a religion. Don’t believe in Santa Claus? That’s a religion. What about the tooth fairy? That’s a religion. Don’t believe in Zeus? That’s a religion. What about Apollo? Another religion. > > Hopefully you now see how ridiculous this argument is, 'cus I don’t feel like going on and on forever. \*\* Huh? How can not believing IN god not be a belief ABOUT god? “I believe God sacrificed his only son to free us from sin.” “I believe God’s greatest prophet was Mohammed.” “I believe God does not exsist.” These are all statements of belief about the nature of God. Atheism is the belief that he has NO nature, that there is no supernatural higher authority over man. Let me amplify my definition of religion, which is, “an organization or association of people who share the same beliefs about the nature of God.” Although most people do not believe in Santa Claus or the toothfairy, I don’t think there are any organizations dedicated to not believing in them. More importantly, there are no organizations dedicated to the belief that either of these largely secular figure are representations of the nature or will of God. Neither of them Apollo and Zeus, on the other hand, are representative of a genuine (if defunct) belief system. However, not believing in Zeus is not a religion, it is a refutation of a single belief about God. If you don’t believe in Zeus, you might be an atheist. Or you might be a Christian. I think both these groups agree that God is not a lecherous old man with a penchant for raping women while disguised as a swan. So, once more: Atheism is a belief about the nature of God, specifically that he has no nature, being nonexsistent. A religion is an organization or association of people who share the same beliefs about the nature of God. There are organizations in the world dedicated to spreading atheism, or at least to providing atheist a forum to meet and/or communicate with others who share their beliefs. Therefore, atheism is a religion. Okay, if you want to get really anal about it, I’ll grant that atheism is a belief, and the specific atheistic organizations are the actual religions. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098/32 "2000-12-27T04:47:56Z")
> [@](#): > > I think both these groups agree that God is not a lecherous old man with a penchant for raping women while disguised as a swan. I think you do not understand what atheists actually are like. I lack belief in all Gods. I lack belief in Zeus. I lack belief in the Christian God. I lack belief in the Jewish God. I have no beliefs about what God is like–it’s a nonsensical question to me. I lack belief in _any_ sort of God. I lack belief in a lecherous old man raping women. I lack belief in a truine God impregnating virgins. How you can possibly think that I would agree that God does not impregate women disguised as a swan (make it a little more mystical and you have Mary’s impregnation by the Holy Spirit–did you think of that?) when I lack any belief in God is beyond me. It’s like I tell you I don’t believe in faeries, and you respond, “But surely, we both agree that faeries have iridescent butterfly wings, and not dragonfly wings like people believed 500 years ago.” I don’t believe in faeries, so I cannot have any beliefs about what they are like. > [@](#): > > So, once more: Atheism is a belief about the nature of God, specifically that he has no nature, being nonexsistent. You approach the point, but then you duck it. “Nonexistence” is not an aspect of one’s nature. A thing cannot have “nonexistence” as a facet of its nature, because if it does not exist it _has_ no nature, see? So lacking belief in God is not a belief about the nature of God– **in order for God to have a nature for you to have any beliefs about, he would have to exist**. I simply lack belief in God–I believe nothing at all about him. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Do you see why simply NOT believing in something does not mean you believe in something? ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098/33 "2000-12-27T06:01:20Z")
Sometimes I can’t believe the ignorance I encounter on these boards. The best Christmas special is “How the Grinch Stole Christmas”, easily. ---
**Author:** ![smugg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f9ae1b/32.png) [@smugg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smugg)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098/34 "2000-12-27T06:23:28Z")
Obviously Montfort has the best taste of all of you. As a raging atheist I’ll put my views in a positive turn of phrase and say I do believe in no God. I do not lack belief - I am convinced there is no God. So, instead of an a-theist (against god), I would henceforth prefer to be called a pro-kenist (for vacancy). ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098/35 "2000-12-27T13:56:49Z")
Groan. You know, I’m an adivineweaselist, myself. I do not believe in the extreme-fundamentalist caricature of a Jonathan Edwards Angry God who created a 20-billion-year-old universe and a 4.6-billion-year-old Earth in 4004 BC and insists that you believe this despite the evidence He planted to the contrary, and who demands eternal torment as the punishment for the “sins” He is well aware we are powerless to stop committing on our own, but was placated by the death by torture of His Son in our place. Atheism is the reasoned belief (i.e., holding of a theory) that there is no deity. Not YHWH, not Allah, not the Holy Trinity, not Ahura Mazda, not Zeus, not the IPU, not Cthulhu, not any supernatural power with claims to godhood. For **some** atheists, this amounts to a faith. I.e., they hold as an non-rational tenet of their worldview the belief defined above. As with **some** Christians and other theists, this corresponds to an emotional need in them. For others, it is the logical outcome of their view of the world. There is no evidence sufficient to convince them of the existence of any such entity. By a variant on Occam’s Razor, the sensible conclusion is that such an entity does not exist. So “atheism” = “faith” is a misnomer. For a few atheists, their worldview is emotionally founded and held in the absence of a strict logic undergirding it, and can legitimately be defined as a “faith” in the creedal sense. For most, no such thing is true. David? Gaudere? Spiritus? VO? Please critique. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098/36 "2000-12-27T13:58:19Z")
Oh, and for the record, Gaudere is on record that my idea of God is her favorite god in which not to believe! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098/37 "2000-12-27T15:53:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*Oh, and for the record, Gaudere is on record that my idea of God is her favorite god in which not to believe! 😉 \*\* I’ll second that notion Poly. Also, when I ducked in here earlier, I forgot the most important point. The best Christmas show is _The Nightmare Before Christmas_. Tim Burton’s vision and Danny Elfman’s music make the Grinch look like a weenie. (Although I do still like Seuss’ green curmdgeon.) ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098/38 "2000-12-27T21:10:12Z")
> [@](#): > > So “atheism” = “faith” is a misnomer. For a few atheists, their worldview is emotionally founded and held in the absence of a strict logic undergirding it, and can legitimately be defined as a “faith” in the creedal sense. For most, no such thing is true. St. Thomas Aquinas, the ardent Catholic who used Aristotlein philosophy, propounded a proof of the immortality of the soul, which in a nutshell was based on the proposition that all things have \*prime matter \* and \*substantial form [/]. Prime matter is what makes a thing exist and sf is the essence of that existence (what makes it what it is). He then proposed that man’s sf (the spirit, if you will) is immortal because man can visualize and think about the infinite. He then had various proofs of the existence of God. He concluded, nonetheless, that the existence of God is a matter of FAITH. There is no proof. It’s just belief. Atheism is a belief, but it is not a faith. ---
**Author:** ![nerd525](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f9ae1b/32.png) [@nerd525](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nerd525)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098/39 "2000-12-27T22:11:23Z")
First of all, the best Christmas special is the Grinch (the cartoon, not the one that hit theaters recently) :). And atheism is NOT a religion. I had a recent debate with a friend who was trying to start his own religion (it has about five members), which is basically lenient Christianity. He, looking for new members, played missionary and tried to convert me, an atheist. I told him I belong to no religion and never will. He responded by trying to argue that atheism is in fact a religion. According to the dictionary, atheism is the ABSENCE of religion, a religion being an institution of supernatural beliefs. Saying atheism is a religion is like saying that bald is a hair color or health is a disease. After these arguments, he suddenly “had to go” without a reply…hrm… ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2000, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098/40 "2000-12-28T02:17:38Z")
**Asmodean** said: > [@](#): > > By your logic there is no name for atheism since it is simply a lack of belief in a god. However atheism does have a name so a direct comparison cannot be made. Actually, my logic had nothing to do with this, and there is no way any rational person could make such an illogical leap. I thought I told you to lay off the eggnog. **Nimune** said: > [@](#): > > Huh? How can not believing IN god not be a belief ABOUT god? It is the lack of a belief in any gods. > [@](#): > > “I believe God sacrificed his only son to free us from sin.” “I believe God’s greatest prophet was Mohammed.” “I believe God does not exsist.” These are all statements of belief about the nature of God. But you’re missing the finer point here. I’m not saying, “I believe God does not exist.” But I _am_ saying that I do not have a belief in any god. > [@](#): > > Let me amplify my definition of religion, which is, “an organization or association of people who share the same beliefs about the nature of God.” Although most people do not believe in Santa Claus or the toothfairy, I don’t think there are any organizations dedicated to not believing in them. So what? You’re saying that because there are organizations of atheists, that makes it a religion? What a nice arbitrary line you’ve chosen to draw – defining things so that they meet your definition. > [@](#): > > Apollo and Zeus, on the other hand, are representative of a genuine (if defunct) belief system. However, not believing in Zeus is not a religion, it is a refutation of a single belief about God. So why is atheism a religion and not “a refutation of a single belief about God”? > [@](#): > > So, once more: Atheism is a belief about the nature of God, specifically that he has no nature, being nonexsistent. Once more: Atheism is the _lack of_ a belief in a deity. Now, some people have corrupted the meaning of the word to the point that it is confusing. This is why I refer to myself instead as a “nonbeliever.” Is that more helpful to your understanding? > [@](#): > > A religion is an organization or association of people who share the same beliefs about the nature of God. There are organizations in the world dedicated to spreading atheism, or at least to providing atheist a forum to meet and/or communicate with others who share their beliefs. Therefore, atheism is a religion. Like I said, it’s awfully convenient for you to define things exactly like you want them, and then claim that they are as you’ve described them because they fit your definition. Unfortunately for you, the world does not revolve around your definitions. **Polycarp** said: > [@](#): > > Oh, and for the record, Gaudere is on record that my idea of God is her favorite god in which not to believe! Ah, yes. But **I** am still the God to which she sends her dues. Which reminds me: Remember, everybody, to include the First Church of David B in your tax planning before the end of the year! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiesm-is-not-a-religion/47098.md?page=3)