# Athiest asked to swear an oath -- what would you do? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 11, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736 "2003-07-11T16:02:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736/1 "2003-07-11T16:02:11Z")
So anyway, I just got myself appointed a Notary Public (yes, I am now a government official and you may all bow down before me ;)). The final step was to go to the clerks office and take the “oath of office.” This was accomplished by having me raise my left hand and read the oath verbatum from a card held in my right hand. The only problem is that the oath (being an oath and not a simple affirmation) includes the phrase “so help me God.” Well, I happen to be an atheist – not one of those “it’s my mission in life to prove there is no God and remove any mention of God from public buildings” atheists, but I simply don’t believe in the big guy (or girl, or sheep, or whatever people wish to believe in). In other words, I don’t believe in God, but I’m not on a crusade about it. At the same time, however, I don’t like being dishonest or hypocritical, and it bothered me to swear a solemn oath in the name of something I don’t accept. I thought about asking if there was an alternative affirmation I could say, or whether I really needed to include the “so help me God” bit at the end, but the line behind me was long, the room was hot and unairconditioned, and I just don’t like making scenes in public. Plus, I was becoming a notary for the benefit of my job and didn’t want to risk mucking it up. And so, like a good little boy, I stated the oath as it was written and got my commission. In my mind, everything I promised to do in the oath is something I feel bound to honor, regardless of whether I believe in God or not. I firmly believe that a man’s word is his honor, and I don’t need the fear of divine retribution to convince me to keep it. And yet, I still feel a bit hypocritical about the whole thing. So… Have any other dopers been in the same situation, or can you imagine what you would do in such a situation? Do you think I was wrong to swear the oath as-is even though I don’t believe in God? If anybody from the clerk’s office reads this thread, do you think they will take my little notary seal away from me? (Just kidding about that last one, folks.) Regards, Barry ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736/2 "2003-07-11T16:11:34Z")
You can also “affirm” an oath and leave off the “so help me God” part. Plnnr - also a Notary Public (that’ll be $2 please). ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736/3 "2003-07-11T16:17:07Z")
As **plnr** says, the Massachusetts Constitution (Part 2, Chapter 1, Section 1, Article 4) gives the legislature the power > [@](#): > > to name and settle annually, or provide by fixed laws, for the naming and settling all civil officers within the said commonwealth; the election and constitution of whom are not hereafter in this form of government otherwise provided for; and to set forth the several duties, powers, and limits, of the several civil and military officers of this commonwealth, and the forms of such **oaths or affirmations** as shall be respectively administered unto them for the execution of their several offices and places, so as the same be not repugnant or contrary to this constitution. . . ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736/4 "2003-07-11T16:20:21Z")
For me, it’s not really a moral question, it’s a practical/political question. Since I don’t believe in The Big One, I don’t think it matters one way or the other if I mumble “so help me God.” On the other hand, I don’t want to encourage our political structure to perpetuate this political-religious quagmire. So yeah, if I had time to complain without pissing everyone off, I might have said something about it, and maybe someday they’ll change their ritual. But in your position I think I would hav done the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736/5 "2003-07-11T16:22:52Z")
**plnnr** & **walloon** : Well, that’s all well and good, but at the time I was asked to take the oath I didn’t know that I had any other choice. My question remains whether other atheist (and sorry about misspelling that in the title) dopers have ever dealt with this situation, or what would they do in that situation, or whether they think I was wrong for taking the oath as presented to me. Barry ---
**Author:** ![Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambi_Hassenpfeffer)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736/6 "2003-07-11T16:43:47Z")
I have to testify in a court case on the 31st, and I intend to tell whoever I can as soon as possible that I need to affirm my oath and not say “… so help me God.” I assume that the prosecutor is going to help prep me for the case, and I guess I can tell him then. If they think that I am untrustworthy because of my atheism, too bad. ---
**Author:** ![3waygeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/e95f7d/32.png) [@3waygeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3waygeek)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736/7 "2003-07-11T16:46:05Z")
[The Master speaks](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_145.html). ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736/8 "2003-07-11T16:52:15Z")
I don’t think you were wrong, **zilla**. I wouldn’t hesitate to take the oath. As far as I’m concerned I’d just be making a promise that I fully intend to keep. If the powers that be wish me to include in the language of that promise the meaningless and extraneous phrase “so help me God,” that’s no skin off my nose. I don’t need Old Nobodaddy’s help to keep my promises, but thanks for the support. ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736/9 "2003-07-11T17:22:29Z")
I wouldn’t take the oath with the reference to god. But I don’t think that you are wrong for doing so. It’s your choice. ---
**Author:** ![Aguecheek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@Aguecheek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aguecheek)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736/10 "2003-07-11T17:35:28Z")
When I joined the (Canadian) Army, they let me use an affirmation; they even asked me beforehand if I wanted to swear to gawd or affirm, which I thought was quite considerate. One other time when I took an oath (I honestly cannot remember why I did though, something to do with immigration), instead of the “so help me God” they supplied me with, I finish with “I do so swear.” Got a funny look from the official, so I explained that I felt an oath sworn to a god would be deceitful on my part and that my personal affirmation was my moral equivalent. They let it go at that. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736/11 "2003-07-11T17:36:52Z")
Slightly off-topic, but can anybody help with the name of the movie where some man just answers the “Do you swear…” thing with just a simple “No.” It caused consternation in the movie, and I don’t recall its being atheism related. But there may be parallels? ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736/12 "2003-07-11T17:58:52Z")
I’ve had to testify in court and I told the prosecutor befor hand that I was a atheist and we used the non-bible affirmation. It was really no big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Kaspar\_Hauser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@Kaspar\_Hauser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaspar_Hauser)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736/14 "2003-07-11T19:35:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zeldar \* > \*\*Slightly off-topic, but can anybody help with the name of the movie where some man just answers the “Do you swear…” thing with just a simple “No.” It caused consternation in the movie, and I don’t recall its being atheism related. But there may be parallels? \*\* Something like that happened in _The People Vs. Larry Flynt_. Of course, that was the least of his courtroom antics in that movie. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736/15 "2003-07-11T22:25:52Z")
Might be kind of fun to mutter, “…so help me Og,” and see if the functionary even notices. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736/16 "2003-07-11T23:21:10Z")
Even as an athiest, I have no problem with swearing an oath, or the Pledge of Allegiance, or any of other contrivance that wants me to recognize the existence of God. I look at it the same way I approach the existence of Santa Claus when I am around children; I play along for their benefit, a harmless fib to preserve the peace. It’s the same with people who believe in God and expect me to do the same; I go along with the myth because I don’t want to upset the children. If I refuse to swear an oath, it gives their God the power to alter my behavior, and forces me to express my beliefs, which I consider personal. ---
**Author:** ![aaslatten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f14d63/32.png) [@aaslatten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aaslatten)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736/17 "2003-07-11T23:23:28Z")
I testified in a case in Texas recently, and they used the “affirm” version of the oath without asking. What if I had wanted to swear to God? _shrug_ ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736/18 "2003-07-11T23:57:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zeldar \* > \*\*Slightly off-topic, but can anybody help with the name of the movie where some man just answers the “Do you swear…” thing with just a simple “No.” It caused consternation in the movie, and I don’t recall its being atheism related. But there may be parallels? \*\* Paraphrasing from _People vs Larry Flynt_: Flynt: I’m an atheist your honor. I can’t swear to a God I don’t believe in. Judge: We’ll let you affirm then. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736/19 "2003-07-12T00:47:36Z")
When I was sworn in as a Justice of the Peace, I chose to use the God botherin’ version, simply because the other folks were, and it was easier to hold the bible than not to. I’m an agnostic who has no problem with swearing by any of the world’s major religions (if I had to). If it’s sacred to a lot of people, then it’s sacred. I’d feel morally bound by an oath I took, be it Muslim, Christian, Jewish, civil, or whatever… As a JP, I usually have a Bible and a Quran close handy, and I can administer an oath or an affirmation. I make sure that the deponent is fully aware of his or her options, and that an affirmation, a Christian Oath, or a non-Christian one carry equal weight before the law. BTW, **plnnr** , I know you were joking with your $2 please" line, but Notaries Public _charge_? I’d get my balls cut off if I charged so much as five cents to perform any of my duties as a Justice of the Peace in Australia. It’s a community service, and the law is _very_ strict about receiving any payment or benefit from it. For example, I am entitled to place the letters J.P. after my name, buy I am, prohibited from doing so on such things as driver’s licences (so I’m not seen to be seeking advantage from any cop who pulls me over, for example), and if I had a business, I couldn’t put the letters after my name on the window. If I were the director of a club or the like, it’s permissible to have the letters in tiny font on an honour board or the like, but that’s about it. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736/20 "2003-07-12T02:31:25Z")
I had to testify in crunchy granola Madison and they didn’t bother with the bible or any of that. I was asked “Do you swear or affirm…” I said I do and that was that. Seems like a sensible solution. **TheLoadedDog** , a notary public is not the equivalent to a justice of the peace in the United States. Notaries here are pretty much nothing more than professional witnesses, who by affixing their seal attest that the document was signed in their presence (notaries I know that’s a simplification so feel free to expand). They are free to charge a fee for notarizing unless otherwise prohibited by law. On those rare occasions I’ve had something notarized it cost me $1 or $2. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736/21 "2003-07-12T03:14:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\* Notaries here are pretty much nothing more than professional witnesses, who by affixing their seal attest that the document was signed in their presence (notaries I know that’s a simplification so feel free to expand). \*\* I think the key to this lies in the _pretty much_ part of it. A Justice of the Peace in a Commonwealth country is also _pretty much_ a professional witness. That is to say, a JP is technically a judge, and although we have fewer powers than JPs had centuries ago, we can still do stuff like granting or refusing bail, issuing search warrants, and the like. In theory. In practice, that would only happen if a Magistrate canot be located, and _that_ would only happen in the middle of the night in a remote outback settlement, maybe. Not in Sydney. The average Justice of the Peace would never be called upon to do that kind of stuff - it’d probably scare the pants off me if I had to. My activity as a JP is confined to witnessing declarations and the like. In fact, a lot of what I do as a JP has no legal basis whatsoever. For example, if Iwitness a statutory declaration, or an affadavit, then I’m strictly performing traditional, legal JP functions, but if I certify a photocopy, or sign off on some guy’s golf club membership, I’m not. Many private institutions (such as clubs) require a JP to witness certain forms, but that’s up to them. The could just as easily require a one-armed Bolivian ballet dancer to do it. It’s a private business policy, not a legal requirement. Sorry for the contitued hijack. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-asked-to-swear-an-oath-what-would-you-do/187736.md?page=2)