# Athiest Dopers would you be mad if your kid found God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2004, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361 "2004-06-08T23:33:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361/141 "2004-06-10T04:29:38Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > _shrugs_ Fair enough. We all know how well pure physics and logic and reason work out in everyday life, so I suppose that is valid enough. Ah, but you’re making the fallacious jump to the opposite extreme. “Pure” physics and logic and reason (by which I assume you mean to imply atheists pointlessly strive for some Vulcan-like perspective) _don’t_ work out in everyday life for every problem, but they’re much better approaches to take, with a much higher rate of success, than any form of ‘spirituality’ I’m aware of. Frankly, unless you can name a form of sprituality that’ll keep my car running, I’ll stick to the physics, logic and reasoning or modern automotive engineering, thank you very much, and I hope my child will do the same. > [@](#): > > There is a difference between a cult and a religion. That difference is not especially well-defined, I’m afraid. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry that you can’t find somethign supernaturally beautiful about the simple life of a tree, but then, you are a cynic. Can’t we just appreciate the _natural_ beauty of a tree, without having to get all “super” about it? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361/142 "2004-06-10T04:31:25Z")
> [@cazzle](#): > > From the dictionary: > **cult** > A system or community of religious worship and ritual. > > What exactly is the difference between a ‘system or community of religious worship and ritual’ and a religion? cult ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klt) n. 1. 1. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. 2. The followers of such a religion or sect. 2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual. 3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual. 4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease. 5. 1. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing. 2. The object of such devotion. 6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest. * * * As a side note, I’m getting pretty sick and tired of “you all” continuing to selectively quote, misinterpret, and otherwise underhandedly try to redefine what I say. If you don’t have an actual point, please refrain from trying to mangle words together. Oh, and buy a better dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361/143 "2004-06-10T04:34:12Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Ah, but you’re making the fallacious jump to the opposite extreme. “Pure” physics and logic and reason (by which I assume you mean to imply atheists pointlessly strive for some Vulcan-like perspective) _don’t_ work out in everyday life for every problem, but they’re much better approaches to take, with a much higher rate of success, than any form of ‘spirituality’ I’m aware of. I’m not the one arguing that all phsyics and logic is based on mental illness, now am I? > [@](#): > > Frankly, unless you can name a form of sprituality that’ll keep my car running, I’ll stick to the physics, logic and reasoning or modern automotive engineering, thank you very much, and I hope my child will do the same. Go ahead. I didn’t see anyone trying to convert you. > [@](#): > > That difference is not especially well-defined, I’m afraid. Yea, not if you only selectively quote. > [@](#): > > Can’t we just appreciate the _natural_ beauty of a tree, without having to get all “super” about it? Yes, you can. _blink_ What was your point? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361/144 "2004-06-10T04:34:32Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Now, are you done sniping and trying to catch me (gods no!) contradicting myself, or do you want to keep at this line of thought? > > Do atheists lock themselves in cages? No. It would be more accurate to say that they lock part of life away from themselves than the other way around. Most seem perfectly content that way, and more power to them. I never criticized anyone for being an atheist, so you may stop sniffing along that trail. I read your original post and had no trouble understanding it. They are just having their fun. It’s true, many things in this world are not logical, or understandable by reasoning. That’s why we have feelings, and intuition. When the scientists erected that broad, thick wall around themselves shutting out everything not “scientific” they did, in fact, close out half of their lives. They are like standing in the middle of a brilliantly lit room with their eyes closed yelling for someone to show them the light. We have reason, and logic, complimented by our feelings and intuition. In order to understand this world, and our place in it, we need both the head and the heart working for us. I feel God’s presence in everything I do, His love, wisdom, and peace are available to all who ask. I would be glad if my children found the peace of God, but they already have, and I already am. Love ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361/145 "2004-06-10T04:43:05Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I read your original post and had no trouble understanding it. Don’t take it the wrong way if I say that isn’t entirely comforting. > [@](#): > > When the scientists erected that broad, thick wall around themselves shutting out everything not “scientific” they did, in fact, close out half of their lives. Actually, the vast majority of scientists are religious people. The opinion that “if you are religious you are mentally ill, incapable of logical or critical thinking, and probably a cultist” is entirely that of what I like to call “fundie” atheists, whose purpose in atheism is to rail against anything remotely religious at any opportunity. The frightening thing is how harshly some Dopers - usually intelligent people - go to reach their ends, even misquoting and selectively defining things to try vainly to put them in a negative light - then turn around and say that anyone who has faith of any kind is an ignorant and inferior savage “locked in a cage.” Frankly, I’m about wrapping up my day, so I hope they are about done making stuff up (ironic, the very thing they accuse theists of doing). Yes, I am getting a little snippy. I’m tired, and I’m frankly insulted that someone on this board would try something so sinister as manipulating a quote that is sitting 6 posts above and can clearly be seen to mean the opposite thing in context. I mean, come on, this is a debate forum, we’re supposed to be civil (neverminding the “mentally ill” slurs, anyway). ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361/146 "2004-06-10T04:47:15Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > **Yosemite** , would you be perfectly happy and equanimous if your kid became a Raelian or joined the Hale-Bopp cult or started worshipping trees? > > For a lot of us, traditional religion seems no more rational. Think about that while you’re patting yourself on the back. Would you really be ok with _any_ choice your kids made? I don’t mean would you try to stop them, I mean is there no choice that would disappoint you? I made a distinction before about “obnoxious” and “oppressive” and I still mean that. I can see anyone being dismayed if their kid was preachy, opressive, or obnoxious, on either side of the spectrum. I’d also add that I’d be dismayed if they joined a cult that had them being the 13th wife of a guy and having tons of his babies, or living in some compound waiting for the aliens to arrive (and not being allowed outside access), and so forth. But that’s a far cry from basically keeping a similar lifestyle to the one they had before, functioning fairly well in society (holding down a steady job, wearing “ordinary” clothes, participating in “mainstream” social activities) but yet having a new belief system in their head. I figure that it’s how we act and how we treat others that is most important to those around us. I have more in common than many “soft” atheists (in some ways) than I do with the ultra-conservative religious Christian, even though the ultra-conservative Christian and I share a faith and the soft atheist and I don’t. That’s because the laid-back soft atheist and I both have no desire to impose unwelcome sermons on other people, or to get all worked up or look down our noses at people who don’t share our beliefs. If I had a choice between having a kid that was (for instance) a laid-back “soft” atheist who “just really didn’t know,” or a scary, frothy, super-rigid hell-and-damnation Christian, I’d choose the soft atheist. Honest. But I’m guessing from some of these posts that if some of you assume that if a person has a “religious” stamp on them, then they’ve got a screw loose. I’m also wondering if some of you would rather have a “militant” atheist kid who was agitated all the time and ranting on about those “stupid Christians” and preaching sermons to them, rather than a laid back religious kid. All I can say is, I’m glad it’s not that way for me. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361/147 "2004-06-10T04:49:37Z")
As we’ve been having this debate (for the past 4 hours or so) I’ve had my attention divided playing City of Heroes. Ironically, I found my avatar in the game fighting against the “Circle of Thorns” and “The Banished,” two “mystical cult” types of groups. Believe me, I can appreciate your emotional high going on a crusade and all. Also believe me, I have been an atheist, agnostic, Christian, and pagan throughout my life. I know what angles you mean. I know what you mean when you refer to all religion as a cult, and I can appreciate your fear in your kids getting caught up in a powerful movement of any kind, be it political, social, or religious. No doubt, you would be similarly distressed in a thread, “Democrats, would you be mad if your kid became a Republican?” or vice versa. All that I’m asking is that you put a chain on your rather blatant hatred and ire against religion in general. The point of the SDMB is to fight ignorance, but railing against all forms of a belief system - and going as far as calling all of them mentally ill? That is behavior in a most ignorant manner. Even if you disbelieve in what someone else believes, even if you know that they are a lying scumbag, you still treat them as a person with respect, at least on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361/148 "2004-06-10T05:00:14Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > I’m not the one arguing that all phsyics and logic is based on mental illness, now am I? Funny, I don’t remmber writing a similar statement about religioin. This being GD and not the Pit, though, I’ve had to restrain myself from expressing some of my true feelings on the matter. > [@](#): > > Go ahead. I didn’t see anyone trying to convert you. Sooooo, you _can’t_ name a form of spirituality that’ll keep a car running? For that matter, can you name any form of spirituality that can do something of measurable value? Hmm, we’re getting a bit far afield, here. Getting back to the matter of my theoretical child, I’ll just re-interate that if he clung to spiritual answers when there were perfectly good (or better) rational answers available, I’d be tempted to give him a smack on the back of the head. More likely, I’d just sigh and make my disappointment crystal clear. > [@](#): > > Yea, not if you only selectively quote. Actually, cultism is a extreme form of religion. Selective quoting is uneccessary. > [@](#): > > What was your point? That our lives as atheists are no less rich than yours because we feel uncompelled to embellish natural beauty by pointlessly throwing in God or Gods. Your alleged sorrow for Diogenes (and I find it incredible to be agreeing with him on something) is a sham; a contemptible attempt at claiming moral superiority. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361/149 "2004-06-10T05:05:19Z")
Oh, another thing I wanted to add: I can fully understand feeling _dismayed_ when a kid chooses a belief system that you don’t share. I know I’d be pretty upset and dismayed if I had a kid who turned their back on Classical music and only listened to Britney Spears, and I admit that music (while important to me) isn’t _nearly_ as important as religious belief is to me! So sure, it’s **human nature** to feel disappointed, dismayed, unhappy, etc., if a kid believed in something that you don’t agree with. But unless the kid has completely changed their personality (in a socially negative way), has lost their job, is starving, addicted to drugs, is one 13 pregnant wives living on a secure compound somewhere, or something really radically different like that, my feeling of _dismay_ isn’t going to translate into “Oh my gosh! They’re _insane!_ They’re _mentally ill!_ They can’t use rational thought!” There’s a big difference there, y’know? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361/150 "2004-06-10T05:06:11Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Funny, I don’t remmber writing a similar statement about religioin. This being GD and not the Pit, though, I’ve had to restrain myself from expressing some of my true feelings on the matter. Doesn’t seem to have slowed you guys down so far. > [@](#): > > Sooooo, you _can’t_ name a form of spirituality that’ll keep a car running? For that matter, can you name any form of spirituality that can do something of measurable value? Can you name an element that can comfort you when your parents die? Well, I suppose you could get high off oxygen or something. Point granted, science can fuel cars, while religion can not. > [@](#): > > Actually, cultism is a extreme form of religion. Selective quoting is uneccessary. Tell that to **cazzle** , s/he seems confused on the subject. > [@](#): > > That our lives as atheists are no less rich than yours because we feel uncompelled to embellish natural beauty by pointlessly throwing in God or Gods. Your alleged sorrow for Diogenes (and I find it incredible to be agreeing with him on something) is a sham; a contemptible attempt at claiming moral superiority. By what constructions have I claimed moral superiority? I claimed that it is nice seeing something special about a tree that **D the C** obviously doesn’t. I am happy that you like trees; I suggest you wear a button proclaiming this favor. I don’t require that you worship them, however, I ask that you don’t call me a lunatic for feeling a supernatural calm while meditating underneath one. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361/151 "2004-06-10T05:06:32Z")
**Zagadka** , Strictly speaking a cult is just a new religious movement which did not arise from another established group (as opposed to a sect which does break off of another group) . The negative connotations associated with the word come from popular vernacular and perception but play no role in how the word is used by social scientists. The word “religion” is almost meaningless, but sociologically speaking, cults _are_ religions- that is, it is a category of religion like a sect or a cult but it’s just not the \*only category. All successful religious movements start as either cults or sects. Christianity started as a sect. And my point was that for many of us, praying to a guy who was murdered 2000 years ago is no more rational than praying to rocks or trees. I have never heard a convincing explanation as to why one invisble entity in the sky is any less nutty than another one, so I would draw no distinction between my daughter converting to the worship of Jesus or to the worship of aliens on Jupiter. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361/152 "2004-06-10T05:09:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Christianity started as a sect. I meant to say _cult_. Christianity started as a cult. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361/153 "2004-06-10T05:14:18Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > **Zagadka** , > > Strictly speaking a cult is just a new religious movement which did not arise from another established group (as opposed to a sect which does break off of another group) . The negative connotations associated with the word come from popular vernacular and perception but play no role in how the word is used by social scientists. > > The word “religion” is almost meaningless, but sociologically speaking, cults _are_ religions- that is, it is a category of religion like a sect or a cult but it’s just not the \*only category. You and I have very differing opinions on what “cult” means, then. I tend to like the one in the dictionary. > [@](#): > > All successful religious movements start as either cults or sects. Christianity started as a [cult] Granted, it did. I’m no longer quite interested in Christianity, but you’ve certainly got me there. > [@](#): > > And my point was that for many of us, praying to a guy who was murdered 2000 years ago is no more rational than praying to rocks or trees. You misunderstand the concept of religion. You pray not to a guy who was murdered (technically, executed) 197something years ago, or to a rock, or to a tree. You contact the spirit, the essence that is behind those things. Religion does not necessitate worship, a change in lifestyle, or any other radical mechanations you and several others in this thread would have it represent. It merely reflects a change in beliefs. It reflects _feeling_ something different, and acknowledging that. > [@](#): > > I have never heard a convincing explanation as to why one invisble entity in the sky is any less nutty than another one, so I would draw no distinction between my daughter converting to the worship of Jesus or to the worship of aliens on Jupiter. This is because you are taking everything literally, which is many atheists’ first mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361/154 "2004-06-10T05:20:49Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Doesn’t seem to have slowed you guys down so far. > > Can you name an element that can comfort you when your parents die? I simply don’t have the ability to delude myself into thinking they would be in Heaven or with God or whatever. The religious soporific is rather like a placebo. It only works if you believe it’s real…and that’s not even to say necessarily that it’s _not_ real, only that belief is required to activate it. I don’t have the ability to believe. I studied too much about religion. I’ve seen the sugar water. > [@](#): > > By what constructions have I claimed moral superiority? I claimed that it is nice seeing something special about a tree that **D the C** obviously doesn’t. I am happy that you like trees; I suggest you wear a button proclaiming this favor. I don’t require that you worship them, however, I ask that you don’t call me a lunatic for feeling a supernatural calm while meditating underneath one. Who said I don’t think trees are special? I would absolutely encourage any and all fascination with, interest in or love of trees, nature, bugs, cars, dinosaurs, whatever. I just think _praying_ to any of the above would be a little nutty. ---
**Author:** ![Call\_me\_Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Call\_me\_Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Call_me_Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361/155 "2004-06-10T05:26:45Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Maybe I’d be a bit disappointed, but certainly not mad. > > If it makes him or her happy, I’d tolerate it OK. I’m already a bit jealous of religious people, what with the happiness and comfort many get from their beliefs. What he said. Atheism is something that I came to when I realized that the whole “god” thing didn’t hold water. I would hope that my kids would be intelligent enough to come to that same conclusion. Religious folks, please do not take that to mean that I think religious people are unintelligent…just faithful. And as I am a Doper, when people speak of god, I must cry “Cite!”. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361/156 "2004-06-10T05:32:28Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I simply don’t have the ability to delude myself into thinking they would be in Heaven or with God or whatever. The religious soporific is rather like a placebo. It only works if you believe it’s real…and that’s not even to say necessarily that it’s _not_ real, only that belief is required to activate it. I don’t have the ability to believe. I studied too much about religion. I’ve seen the sugar water. I respectfully disagree. There is a some point in every theist’s life where they do not believe, whether it be before they become theists, or lose faith for a time. I’m quite sure that the same supernatural force that theists connect to affects atheists, though only on a subconscious level. > [@](#): > > Who said I don’t think trees are special? I would absolutely encourage any and all fascination with, interest in or love of trees, nature, bugs, cars, dinosaurs, whatever. I just think _praying_ to any of the above would be a little nutty. As stated, you aren’t praying to any of the above. You are connecting with the essence. OK, here we get more into my specific religious beliefs - some might consider me a pantheist, so I could, would, and do use things - including trees - to meditate and connect with “god” - I am not, however, worshipping a tree, or praying to a tree to animate and somehow make something happen. My version of prayer is not asking a force to intervene and change something - it is a form of meditation to reach into yourself and make a change within yourself or your perception. Instead of, as you would imagine, praying to God and asking Him for money, you meditate and connect at a supernatural level, to give yourself the encouragement and confidence needed to do well on a job interview. Maybe understanding that, you can understand why I object to “all religion” being dumped together unceremoniously, and why I get so infuriated when people assume that I pray to a big guy in the sky to do things for me. There are alternatives to what most Americans and Westerners call religion (AKA, Christianity, though this easily extends to Judaism and Islam) ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361/157 "2004-06-10T05:36:20Z")
> [@Call me Frank](#): > > What he said. > > Atheism is something that I came to when I realized that the whole “god” thing didn’t hold water. I would hope that my kids would be intelligent enough to come to that same conclusion. > > Religious folks, please do not take that to mean that I think religious people are unintelligent…just faithful. An entirelty fair position. > [@](#): > > And as I am a Doper, when people speak of god, I must cry “Cite!”. Unfortunately, “god” is something felt emotionally, not seen, touched, heard, or otherwise physically experienced. The only cite one can have is knowing it themselves. I know that doesn’t satisfy many people, and I don’t expect them to immediately convert once they get the misconception of god as a physical presence out of their head, but I can hope to make a dent in that thinking. I hate to sound cultish, but not everybody is prepared to see beyond what they can see. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361/158 "2004-06-10T05:40:35Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > You and I have very differing opinions on what “cult” means, then. I tend to like the one in the dictionary. As I said, that dictionary entry is not the definition which is used by social scientists and academics who study religious movements. The definition I used comes from the models used by [Stark and Bainbridge](http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Sociology_of_religion) whose work is more or less the template for how religious movements are now classified and discussed (and whose textbook I was forced to use in my own New Religious Movements class). I used the academic definition not the popular one. > [@](#): > > You misunderstand the concept of religion. You pray not to a guy who was murdered (technically, executed) 197something years ago, or to a rock, or to a tree. You contact the spirit, the essence that is behind those things. You realize that “spirit” and “essence” are semantically null words. They mean nothing to me as they have no definition. I would also disagree that the majority of Christians don’t think they’re literally praying to Jesus. > [@](#): > > Religion does not necessitate worship, a change in lifestyle, or any other radical mechanations you and several others in this thread would have it represent. It merely reflects a change in beliefs. It reflects _feeling_ something different, and acknowledging that. It’s the change in belief that bothers me not the lifestyle. It wou;d disturb me for my kid to start talking to or believing in things that aren’t there. I wouldn’t stop her. I actually _do_ understand the power of real religious experience and I would probably react differently to that than just my kid getting pressured into joing a church by her friends. I want her to be a clear and critical thinker, not a blind follower. > [@](#): > > This is because you are taking everything literally, which is many atheists’ first mistake. I’m an agnostic, not an atheist…and I don’t take everything literally. It’s just my observation that a lot of religious people do. I respect the ones who don’t though. I respect anyone who can have faith without dogma. ---
**Author:** ![citrus\_x\_paradisi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6f9a4e/32.png) [@citrus\_x\_paradisi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/citrus_x_paradisi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361/159 "2004-06-10T05:44:19Z")
You keep throwing around the word ‘supernatural,’ and I noticed it’s grated on others here as well. Why supernatural? If being in the aboretum calms your nerves, sure. Why can’t you just like trees, though? _I respectfully disagree. There is a some point in every theist’s life where they do not believe, whether it be before they become theists, or lose faith for a time. I’m quite sure that the same supernatural force that theists connect to affects atheists, though only on a subconscious level._ Okay, so on the one hand, spirituality’s effects are inquantifiable and inexplicable, but on the other hand, they affect atheists on a subconcious level. What is this effect? Why can’t _it_ be quantified? Furthermore, I don’t mean to bite off more than I can chew, but if it cannot be percieved or quantified, what reasoning is there for something to exist? It seems to me the basis for a lot of your belief is just the basic human fascination with emotion. I don’t mean to patronize you, but it’s really just a brew of endorphins fizzing in your brain in that arboretum. It’s not just un-supernatural, it’s perfectly natural. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361/160 "2004-06-10T05:56:39Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > I’d be slightly upset, if only that meant my attempts at teaching him to be an intelligent, rational, critical thinker has failed. So, how exactly does this work again? Your son is a rational, intelligent, critical thinker unless he disagrees with you, in which case he becomes what? A drooling mouthbreather? So much for the freedom of thought that you profess to have and that you insist that conservatives suppress. I hope you can continue entertaining me by deluding yourself into thinking that you are in any way different or better than the rest of us, though. I’d miss deconstructing lunatic statements like the above far too much. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiest-dopers-would-you-be-mad-if-your-kid-found-god/249361.md?page=9)