# Athiests are not citizens, WTF? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 20, 2002, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-are-not-citizens-wtf/144134 "2002-12-20T23:23:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Denis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5e9695/32.png) [@Denis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Denis)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-are-not-citizens-wtf/144134/61 "2002-12-23T18:24:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PunditLisa \* > Well, yes, but that doesn’t mean you should believe any outrageous claim that comes down the pike. In fact, you should be even _more_ skeptical re claims against people who you don’t like, to balance out your own prejudices. Well, yes, but I don’t believe any outrageous claim that comes down the pike. In fact, I think the statements attributed to Bush I could indeed be made up. I just don’t _know_ this for a fact one way or the other. However, based on how far he had his nose up the asses of the Religious Right during that campaign, I would not be the least bit surprised. As far as my “prejudices” are concerned: I have an, “I’ll believe it when I see it” attitude with regard to pols. I just don’t trust 'em after years of observation and experience. > [@](#): > > I don’t believe Bush Sr. said this for several reasons: > > #1 - It would have been all over the news. And it would have been a big deal. I am a conservative and would have been outraged by a comment like this. I doubt it, it being all over the news, that is, not your outrage. Atheists are considered “fringe” in this country (no cite, just experience), and the “fringe” is not given much credence. > [@](#): > > #2 - The person who wrote the article (Sherman) is not reputed to be a trustworthy and credible reporter. And he has an agenda. So, perhaps he cried, “Wolf!” too many times? I don’t know. But untrustworthiness and incredibility stick to Bush I like stink on shit, in my opinion. Not to mention an agenda. > [@](#): > > #3 - As others have said, there was no independent corroboration from others who were present that Bush said this. I find this the strongest evidence that Sherman made it up. > [@](#): > > #4 - Bush was a former CIA director. He’s too freaking smart to say anything so stupid, even if he believed it to be true. (Which I don’t believe he does.) Bush was, and remains, a Party animal. As for smarts, “Read my lips! No new taxes!” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-are-not-citizens-wtf/144134/62 "2002-12-23T20:39:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > \*\*Shodan, read my post again, especially the last part. I _am_ skeptical. I _don’t_ think Bush said it. I just don’t think one can say **for sure** it was not said. > > I’m not asking anyone to prove a negative, because **that impossibility is what it would take to say FOR SURE the quote was not said.** \*\* In that case, how do you know it wasn’t really [this?](http://www.davidicke.com/icke/index.html) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-are-not-citizens-wtf/144134/63 "2002-12-23T21:45:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > \*\*I retract my apology. Shodan DID mention Clinton, **you** need to pay better attention as well. I was responding to his statement “By your logic, we don’t know for certain that Clinton didn’t really have all those people killed, either.” \*\* **My** apologies then…too many damn Clintons for one thread, I tell ya. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-are-not-citizens-wtf/144134/64 "2002-12-24T04:03:05Z")
As xenophon points out I examined this excchange and a subsequent one between Sherman and one of Bush’s representatives. The case that it happened: 1. Bush has not denied it. 2. Sherman has offered corroboration (which has not responded after 3 requests) 3. Sherman is a reporter with credentials. I fabrication would be a serious offense. 4. I have found no case of Sherman fabricating anything else. 5. Bush has replied to a request for a clarification that he “stood by his original statement.” The case against it: 1. Not on tape, or successfully corroborated. My personal guess as to what happened: It occured substantially as Sherman reported. Possibly it went under the radar of the rest of the reporters because (and this is just an impression) Sherman may have been perceived as an annoying pain in the ass to all present and deserving of a snubbing. Indeed according to a later incident it looks like there was a deliberate attempt to snub and blow off Sherman in the worst way possible when he met with Ed Murnane. Clearly the elder Bush and company had little compunction of letting anyone who cared to know what they thought of Sherman and American Atheists. The full exchange is here: > [@](#): > > [http://bennyhills.fortunecity.com/hardy/203/nonbeliever/page50.html](http://bennyhills.fortunecity.com/hardy/203/nonbeliever/page50.html) The documents referenced are available on line but I’m not gonna go fishing. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-are-not-citizens-wtf/144134/65 "2002-12-24T04:04:36Z")
That didn’t work. Try here: [http://bennyhills.fortunecity.com/hardy/203/nonbeliever/page50.html](http://bennyhills.fortunecity.com/hardy/203/nonbeliever/page50.html) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-are-not-citizens-wtf/144134/66 "2002-12-24T07:17:36Z")
Unless Scylla is mistaken, either one of two things happened: Bush Sr. did indeed make the statement or; Bush Sr. did not make the statement, but deliberately acted to give the impression that he did. Either way, he is a bigot. Furthermore, the lack of attention that this has received in the media shows widespread bigotry against atheists. If a reporter had claimed that Bush had said that blacks shouldn’t be considered citizens, it would be major story, even without corroboration. And at his next press conference, Bush would been asked to comfirm or deny it. This whole “other reporters were asked about it, and they said they didn’t hear it” obscures the real issue: why wasn’t **Bush** asked about it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-are-not-citizens-wtf/144134/67 "2002-12-24T13:54:43Z")
It seems to me that if Mr. Bush is willing to stand by his original statement, then his original statement did indeed occur. I also find it curious that the mainstream reporters did not feel the need to follow up on or even _question_ the facts of the statement. If Mr. Bush had been accused of saying the same thing about Catholics, Jews or Hispanics the resulting furor would have made the front page in every city’s newspaper. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-are-not-citizens-wtf/144134/68 "2002-12-24T14:39:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*It seems to me that if Mr. Bush is willing to stand by his original statement, then his original statement did indeed occur. > \*\* This is assuming that his original statement had anything to do with atheism. The original exchange would run like this: Bush: “Many of the Founding Fathers believed in God.” (or some other bland, political statement). Sherman: (shouting out a question, along with a dozen other reporters) “What are you doing to win the votes of atheists?” Bush: (ignores Sherman) (Sherman fabricates a quote). Three months later, Sherman contacts the Bush campaign and says: “How could a politician make a statement like Bush did, and not offend atheists?” Bush campaign: “We stand by our original statement.” > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\* > I also find it curious that the mainstream reporters did not feel the need to follow up on or even _question_ the facts of the statement. If Mr. Bush had been accused of saying the same thing about Catholics, Jews or Hispanics the resulting furor would have made the front page in every city’s newspaper. \*\* Just so, and it is exactly this that makes it so hard for me to believe that Bush Sr. would have made any such statement. If Trent Lott could make a stupid statement that could be construed to be offensive to some group of Americans, and be hounded from his post as Senate Majority Leader, I cannot find a reason why Bush Sr. would not have suffered the same treatment. The press would have been all over a statement like that, and (IMO) rightly so. But they weren’t, and in the midst of a political campaign where political reporters dream of finding scandal. But they weren’t. Sherman made the whole thing up. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-are-not-citizens-wtf/144134/69 "2002-12-24T14:47:32Z")
[aside] Thanks for the update, Scylla. [/aside] ---
**Author:** ![MindWanderer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@MindWanderer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MindWanderer)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-are-not-citizens-wtf/144134/70 "2002-12-24T15:44:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\* If Mr. Bush had been accused of saying the same thing about Catholics, Jews or Hispanics the resulting furor would have made the front page in every city’s newspaper. \*\* Yeah but in America lots of people hate Atheists or think they are kooks and extremists. I bet Bush Jr could say substantially the same thing as that quote that Bush Sr may or may not have said, and there would be little reaction in mainstream media. America is a religious country, where lots of people think freedom of religion is being able to choose between different denominations of Christianity, not about being able to choose no god, or more than one god. I know lots of people on this site would be upset at insults against atheists, but I doubt mainstream media cares. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-are-not-citizens-wtf/144134/71 "2002-12-25T06:57:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > This is assuming that his original statement had anything to do with atheism. From Scylla’s link: > [@](#): > > American Atheists, again wrote to President Bush demanding a clarification of and an apology for his statement that Atheists “should not be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots.” Bush ignored the letter, as did Gray and Lund. So one of the following is true: 1. The site is lying 2. Bush’s staff didn’t bother telling him that a reporter had fabricated an extermely insulting quote 3. Bush found out about it, but didn’t think it was important enough to set the record straight 4. Bush actually did make the statement > [@](#): > > Just so, and it is exactly this that makes it so hard for me to believe that Bush Sr. would have made any such statement. Huh? Can you explain your reasoning? > [@](#): > > I cannot find a reason why Bush Sr. would not have suffered the same treatment. The press would have been all over a statement like that, and (IMO) rightly so. Why are you talking in the subjunctive mood? We know that the press “would” not have been all over it, because they **were** not. > [@](#): > > Sherman made the whole thing up. The media don’t care about insults made to atheists, therefore Sherman made it up? That doesn’t compute. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-are-not-citizens-wtf/144134.md?page=3)