# "Athiests Need to Just Shut Up", part II **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 13, 2007, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019 "2007-02-13T14:46:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019/41 "2007-02-14T13:57:15Z")
I watched the clip again last night, and came to a slightly different conclusion. The atheist woman wasn’t tongue-tied, and she wasn’t lacking an answer – she had no time left, and she was continually shouted down by the idiot preacher while she was trying to explain. And as often happens in these types of forums, it all devovled into a shouting match. Unfortunately, this left viewers with the impression that the preacher won. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019/42 "2007-02-15T07:14:26Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] Well, I personally prefer the single commandment from the New Testament. Which I believe is one that even an atheist can get behind: Love your neighbor as yourself. [/QUOTE] From what I’ve seen most atheists\* don’t seem to consider loving their neighbors to be an important part of ethics. Most people seem to think it’s hippy bullshit. - So that atheists don’t feel they’re being singled out unfairly, Christians of course will pay lip service to that idea, but most don’t seem to understand what it means or to follow it better than the average atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019/43 "2007-02-15T14:20:48Z")
[QUOTE=Talon Karrde] From what I’ve seen most atheists\* don’t seem to consider loving their neighbors to be an important part of ethics. Most people seem to think it’s hippy bullshit. [/quote] This is bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019/44 "2007-02-15T14:29:36Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] This is bullshit. [/QUOTE] Well, you’re not exactly bringing up the average. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019/45 "2007-02-15T14:55:01Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] Well, you’re not exactly bringing up the average. [/QUOTE] How so? What **Talon Karrde** said was, indeed, bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019/46 "2007-02-15T14:55:21Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] Well, you’re not exactly bringing up the average. [/QUOTE] Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019/47 "2007-02-15T15:01:00Z")
First of all, it’s not bullshit. It’s Sturgeon’s Law as applied to human relations. 90% of Christians don’t really believe the NT Commandment, either. Second of all, it was more of a generalized observation that DtC seems to use more of the OT judgmental god ethics than a more forgiving approach. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019/48 "2007-02-15T15:24:03Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] First of all, it’s not bullshit. It’s Sturgeon’s Law as applied to human relations. 90% of Christians don’t really believe the NT Commandment, either. [/quote] I diasagree that they don’t believe it. Most people do have a core of compassion and humanity, at least towards people they perceive as being close to them. Empathy is a hardwired biological response. The problem lies in the fact that humans generally also have an ingrained tendency to _separate_ humanity into "neighbors,’ and “others.” > [@](#): > > Second of all, it was more of a generalized observation that DtC seems to use more of the OT judgmental god ethics than a more forgiving approach. More bullshit. My “judgement,” such as it is, of other people pretty much boils down to “Don’t hurt people.” My personal ethos has been to volunteer for humanitarian causes my whole adult life. I don’t even know what you’re talking about with this shit. I’m not 'forgiving?" Forgiving for what? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019/49 "2007-02-15T15:48:41Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] First of all, it’s not bullshit. It’s Sturgeon’s Law as applied to human relations. 90% of Christians don’t really believe the NT Commandment, either. [/QUOTE] It depends on what you mean by loving your neighbor. It’s true that I, for example, don’t drop off large boxes of cash at the doors of complete strangers. But by the same token, I make a sincere effort not to paint swastikas on those same doors. I suspect that most people are on the same page as me, Christian or not. Most people act in self-interest, but are generally good to others. So to say that atheists aren’t, and then to parenthetically say “oh yeah, and Christians” is in fact bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019/50 "2007-02-15T15:50:08Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] More bullshit. My “judgement,” such as it is, of other people pretty much boils down to “Don’t hurt people.” My personal ethos has been to volunteer for humanitarian causes my whole adult life. I don’t even know what you’re talking about with this shit. I’m not 'forgiving?" Forgiving for what? [/QUOTE] Again, you might talk a nice talk but your posts consitently show a pattern of jumpinig to conclusions based on flimsy evidence and morally condemning people based not only on this flimsy evidence but also overly harsh moral stances. I do the latter as well, sometimes, but when combined with the former, is a witch-hunter attitude to me. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019/51 "2007-02-15T15:51:24Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I’m not 'forgiving?" Forgiving for what? [/QUOTE] Well, be fair: You don’t suffer fools gladly, or even politely. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019/52 "2007-02-15T16:00:16Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] Again, you might talk a nice talk but your posts consitently show a pattern of jumpinig to conclusions based on flimsy evidence and morally condemning people based not only on this flimsy evidence but also overly harsh moral stances. I do the latter as well, sometimes, but when combined with the former, is a witch-hunter attitude to me. [/QUOTE] “Harsh moral stances?” Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019/53 "2007-02-15T16:27:15Z")
Your posts are your cite. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019/54 "2007-02-15T16:52:18Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] This is bullshit. [/QUOTE] How so? My understanding is that Jesus had a much more radical meaning in that message than “being good to others” and “don’t hurt people” or even basic empathy and compassion. My statement was really not meant to be an insult to atheists. Maybe I am wrong here, but if so it’s not because of any ill will. I’ll have to reevaluate what I said because my thoughts are all jumbled now. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019/55 "2007-02-15T17:48:52Z")
[QUOTE=Talon Karrde] My statement was really not meant to be an insult to atheists. [/QUOTE] Ah, OK. It sort of came off that way. Sorry for calling it bullshit. So what was Jesus’s actual meaning behind it? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019/56 "2007-02-15T18:02:51Z")
[QUOTE=Talon Karrde] How so? My understanding is that Jesus had a much more radical meaning in that message than “being good to others” and “don’t hurt people” or even basic empathy and compassion. My statement was really not meant to be an insult to atheists. Maybe I am wrong here, but if so it’s not because of any ill will. I’ll have to reevaluate what I said because my thoughts are all jumbled now. [/QUOTE] Well, ok. I thought you meant that atheists don’t believe in the Golden Rule at least in principle. I think that atheists, like theists, see it as an _ideal_, a target, and understand it as morally “correct” in principle, and try, with varying degrees of success, to fulfill it. I don’t believe anybody follows it perfectly, but theists and atheists alike understand that you’re supposed to TRY. I also think that humans are a social animal, evolved to survive in communities, not as individuals, and that the empathic response is biologically ingrained and serves to facilitate the stability of human communities. Most people (unless they’re sociopaths who lack the empathic response) are biologically predisposed to WANT to alleviate suffering and distress in others of their own communities. It is, of course, rare to find an individual who is able to universalize this impulse beyond his/her perceived “community,” (which is what I think Jesus told them to do), but even so, I think most of them recognize they’re supposed to TRY. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019/57 "2007-02-15T18:10:16Z")
Dawkins had a bit about that in his latest book, IIRC. Or perhaps it was a different source. I don’t know. But the idea was that we evolved to care for other in our own tribes, but not necessarily in other tribes. The thing is, these days our tribe is about six billion strong. ---
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019/58 "2007-02-15T18:11:23Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The morality question \*should be a ground ball \* to anyone speaking on behalf of atheists. … \ … I thought Chris Hitchens was supposed to be on. What happened to him? he would have _drilled that question out of the park_. So would Dawkins, for that matter. [/QUOTE] \ Missing baseball much, Dio? Pitchers and Catchers report this week. \ -Cem ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019/59 "2007-02-15T18:26:58Z")
[QUOTE=George Kaplin] This clearly demonstrates that even lower order primates are endowed with an innate capacity to empathise. [/QUOTE] Atheists (and others) who believe in cladistic science recognize that chimpanzees are _the same_ order of primates we are…not “lower.” [We’re another species of chimp, basically.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Chimpanzee) Sailboat ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up-part-ii/392019/60 "2007-02-15T18:42:13Z")
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