# "Athiests Need to Just Shut Up"
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [February 7, 2007, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204 "2007-02-07T14:30:15Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 17
### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [February 13, 2007, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204/321 "2007-02-13T19:59:24Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
The point has always been not whether board members agree with him. It is that he is the Christian spokesman. He is. Open access to the white house ,daily TV and huge political influence ,makes him that. Every stupid proclamation the jerk utters is covered and explained away by TV. He gets a pass because he is the man.He appears on news talk endlessly.His opinions are sought when the Christian side needs to be presented.
[/QUOTE]
Why do you keep repeating this when you’ve been shown overwhelming evidence to the contrary?
For the Bush White House especially, he has not been a friend, but rather a constant irritant. One example is when he said that Bush told him there’d be [no casualties in Iraq](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/19/robertson.bush.iraq/). Even Kerry didn’t believe him. The White House denied even meeting with him. And he criticized Bush for not admitting mistakes.
What sort of influence is that?
Another example was when he said that Sharon’s stroke was a result of [God’s wrath](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10728347/). The White House was mortified, saying that Roberston’s remarks were “wholly inappropriate and offensive”.
As for the Christian Coalition, it too is [on the decline](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/09/AR2006040901063.html). It is millions of dollars in debt, and even kicked Robertson out after he applauded China’s abortion policies. Now he operates independently. But even though Fox bought his Family network, Britt Hume of Fox News says his influence [is waning](http://www.mediatransparency.org/story.php?storyID=87) as does the Media Research Center.
I doubt that anyone has him on anymore to represent anything other than the 700 Club. He still has his own show, but his viewership is only about a million (Op. Cit.). That is a fraction of a percent of Christians in the US.
He is nothing.
---
### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [February 13, 2007, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204/322 "2007-02-13T23:48:16Z")
Liberal your stubborn opinion repeated endlessly is ZERO evidence of anything but your intractability. The only evidence has been mine. countered with your parroting “he is a jerk and not a spokesman”. I agree he is a jerk. A careless one at that. But his constant TV representation as Christian spokesman coupled with huge deference from politicians and executives. shows his influence.
Tom ,I see no evidence that his power is fading. his outrageous pronouncement should have earned him a rubber room years ago. But there he is.,on Meet the Press and other mainstream programs. He should have been ostracized years ago. He is not.
The asshole goes to the white house at will. He probably has Bushies private phone. He probably has had every presidents personal phone number.
If you disagree,then who has replaced him. ? I see no one has taken over for him.
---
### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2007, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204/323 "2007-02-14T00:37:07Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
If you disagree,then who has replaced him. ?
[/QUOTE]
Replaced him as what? There has never been one single spokesperson for all Christianity, even before the Great Schism of 1054.
The pope is not “the spokesman” for Christians, given that Robertson, Swaggart, the staff of BJU, and dozens of other people consider him to be evil. The Archbishops of New York, Washington, and Baltimore (based on size, political relevance, and primacy of office) are not “the spokesman” for Christians for the same reasons. There is no recognized “spokesman” for all the various Protestanrt denominations.
The whole idea that there is “one spokesman” is nothing more than a silly way for TV shows to get audience attention by claiming to have “the spokesman” on today’s show.
It is an imaginary construct that only you in the whole world appear to believe (given that the media knows that they are simply hyping nonsense).
It is reasonably true that Rpobertson is recognized as an outspoken (right-wing, Fundamentalist, politically active, money-raising) member of the media who might happen to “speak for” a fairly small number of adherents to his own odd forms of belief. This does not make him “the spokesman.”
You point to the fact that he gets invited to speak every once in a while as a representative of one loud minority of people, yet you ignore the fact that he only speaks for that loud minority. Note that the major focus of this thread (before you started inserting silly claims) was that CNN aired a discussion of the topic of atheism and did not even include (initially) an atheist to be the “spokesman” for that group. Why in the world would you insist that one loud guy with a dwindling audience is the “spokesman” for an enormous number of disparate peoples except to demonstrate either that you swallow everything you see on TV without analysis or that you are trying to set up a strawman claim for who represents a large number of different peoples simply so that you can falsely claim that they should be ignored because you don’t like the “spokesman” that is only a “spokesman” in your imagination, to begin with?
---
### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2007, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204/324 "2007-02-14T00:39:46Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
The only evidence has been mine.
[/QUOTE]
If you consider what you have submitted to be the “only evidence,” you are clearly not operating in the real world.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2007, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204/325 "2007-02-14T00:43:38Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
Liberal your stubborn opinion repeated endlessly is ZERO evidence of anything but your intractability. The only evidence has been mine. countered with your parroting “he is a jerk and not a spokesman”.
[/quote]
I’m sorry, but you’re fucking insane. I have documented every claim I made with links to left-reputable news and research sources. You have yet to document a single claim, but still cling to your ridiculous position. Jesus, it’s like you hope people can’t actually see our posts or something.
---
### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2007, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204/326 "2007-02-14T01:07:45Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal]
But that presumes He wants a single interpretation. Why not leave people free to pursue whatever they treasure most? If you interpret Jesus as a monster, then you are right to turn away from Him. Why would God want to trump your own subjective will with His?
[/QUOTE]
Are the interpretations calling on believers to kill unbelievers equally valid? How about those to kill witches, or Sabbath violators? Perhaps God doesn’t care what we do, and there are no consequences. But, if God and morality define some broad area of acceptable behavior, how do figure out what’s in and what’s out besides using our moral sense? The moral sense that is socially and/or evolutionarily developed, and is there even if there is no God at all.
I’m not objecting to any of this, just saying that it makes belief in God pointless, whether one thinks he exists or not. Given the you have to interpret the Bible view, any morality is equivalent to atheist morality, whether one believes in God or not.
---
### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2007, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204/327 "2007-02-14T01:08:52Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Primordial giant squids?
[/QUOTE]
How about deros?
---
### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2007, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204/328 "2007-02-14T01:11:16Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager]
I’m not objecting to any of this, just saying that it makes belief in God pointless, whether one thinks he exists or not.
[/QUOTE]
The only reason to believe in God, as I see it, is because you treasure Him. That’s why I believe, anyway. I value Him above all else. For those who do not, belief in God is indeed pointless and quite possibly counterproductive or damaging.
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2007, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204/329 "2007-02-14T01:55:14Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal]
But that presumes He wants a single interpretation. Why not leave people free to pursue whatever they treasure most? If you interpret Jesus as a monster, then you are right to turn away from Him. Why would God want to trump your own subjective will with His?
[/QUOTE]
If a word means everything, it means nothing at all. The same is true for a sentence, a paragraph, a chapter, a book or even a collection of books. Some may say that you get out of the Bible what you are willing to put into it, but the same is true of a blank diary you can buy down at your local WalMart for $2.99(+tax where applicable).
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### Author:  [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2007, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204/330 "2007-02-14T01:55:15Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
Liberal your stubborn opinion repeated endlessly is ZERO evidence of anything but your intractability.
[/QUOTE]
My irony meter just exploded.
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### Author:  [@Beaucarnea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beaucarnea)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2007, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204/331 "2007-02-14T03:06:46Z")
wrong forum. sorry
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### Author:  [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2007, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204/332 "2007-02-14T05:04:33Z")
So did anyone manage to catch Dawkins on Zahn’s show? I’m afraid I missed it, and was hoping someone had posted their thoughts here.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2007, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204/333 "2007-02-14T09:26:39Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
If a word means everything, it means nothing at all. The same is true for a sentence, a paragraph, a chapter, a book or even a collection of books. Some may say that you get out of the Bible what you are willing to put into it, but the same is true of a blank diary you can buy down at your local WalMart for $2.99(+tax where applicable).
[/QUOTE]
You seem to be of the opinion that you and I disagree. I don’t know how many times or ways I have to say, you are in no way beholden to have any faith or believe anything. I value God not because of any Bible, but because of my experience. Churches do have people who read the book and even worship the book, but who believe in God about as much as you do. Quite honestly, it wasn’t until _after_ my conversion experience that things in the Bible meant anything to me at all.
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2007, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204/334 "2007-02-14T12:37:33Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal]
You seem to be of the opinion that you and I disagree. I don’t know how many times or ways I have to say, you are in no way beholden to have any faith or believe anything. I value God not because of any Bible, but because of my experience. Churches do have people who read the book and even worship the book, but who believe in God about as much as you do. Quite honestly, it wasn’t until _after_ my conversion experience that things in the Bible meant anything to me at all.
[/QUOTE]
Please do not take this as a personal insult, for it reflects my own philosophy only: what is true for a word, a story or a book is also true for a _god_. If a god is so personalized that it can be different for every single person, and all people share the same reality, then it can only be concluded that this “personal” god you put forth exists only in the imagination, and cannot have any influence on the outside world.
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2007, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204/335 "2007-02-14T18:16:21Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal]
The only reason to believe in God, as I see it, is because you treasure Him. That’s why I believe, anyway. I value Him above all else. For those who do not, belief in God is indeed pointless and quite possibly counterproductive or damaging.
[/QUOTE]
For me, the likelihood of his existence has something to do with it. But different strokes, etc.
---
### Author:  [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2007, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204/336 "2007-02-14T20:48:34Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
Appeared on 700 club…
Tom Delay
Hannity and Colmes
Ollie North
Zogby
Eleanor Clift
Peggy Noonan
John Kyl
Brownback
Lieberman
Gore
Hatch
Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan. Plus numerous celebrities and sports figures.
He is the man.He gets deference from the powerful. His influence is huge .
[/QUOTE]
But still not huge enough to influence me…and millions of others.
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### Author:  [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2007, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204/337 "2007-02-14T20:59:57Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Please do not take this as a personal insult, for it reflects my own philosophy only: what is true for a word, a story or a book is also true for a _god_. If a god is so personalized that it can be different for every single person, and all people share the same reality, then it can only be concluded that this “personal” god you put forth exists only in the imagination, and cannot have any influence on the outside world.
[/QUOTE]
We all may share the same reality, but our experiences from it are unique, and our personal beliefs and/or non-beliefs are drawn from our own personal experiences in reality. I can see why we have such diverging viewpoints on God, imagined or not.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2007, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204/338 "2007-02-14T22:54:59Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Please do not take this as a personal insult, for it reflects my own philosophy only: what is true for a word, a story or a book is also true for a _god_. If a god is so personalized that it can be different for every single person, and all people share the same reality, then it can only be concluded that this “personal” god you put forth exists only in the imagination, and cannot have any influence on the outside world.
[/QUOTE]
I think you meant “perception” rather than “imagination”. At least, that’s what would follow logically. However, it could be said that everything exists in our perception. You don’t really see a tree; you see occipital stimulation by photons.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204/339 "2007-02-15T02:39:52Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal]
I think you meant “perception” rather than “imagination”. At least, that’s what would follow logically. However, it could be said that everything exists in our perception. You don’t really see a tree; you see occipital stimulation by photons.
[/QUOTE]
I’m pretty sure I meant “imagination”. No matter how you perceive that tree, it’s still gonna knock you on your ass if you walk into it. Any “god” that exists solely in your mind? Not so much.
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### Author:  [@Beaucarnea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beaucarnea)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/athiests-need-to-just-shut-up/391204/340 "2007-02-15T02:44:39Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
I’m pretty sure I meant “imagination”. No matter how you perceive that tree, it’s still gonna knock you on your ass if you walk into it. Any “god” that exists solely in your mind? Not so much.
[/QUOTE]
These religious debate threads are the best source of analogies evah.
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