I must say that I completely agree.
Not possible. I have to make a living, and see that’s the thing. It’s easier to make a living as a free-agent circus freak than as a voice of moderation.
When I say “you”, I of course mean Moderate Christianity as a whole, not you personally. Much the same way as when people bitch about those Christians trying to control our personal lives, they mean the visible (Rad Right)Christians that are politically active, not you personally.
Yeah, but they have to make a living too. They’re ministers, pastors, and priests of local congregations. They get paid to visit the sick and elderly, run the church’s administration of charities and projects, host and conduct weddings, baptisms, and celebrations, and preside over church services throughout the week. What can they do? There are already moderate Christian televangelists, and they have highly successful enterprises. But Fox and CNN don’t want to hear from them, except as occasional human interest pieces. (Specials on megachurches, the charismatic movement, etc.)
I think it’s right to blame two sets of people: (1) Fox and CNN for copping out to sensationalism and ratings, and (2) gullible people who think these wackos represent the mainstream. It’s the same reason I don’t blame blacks for Al Sharpton, or Muslims for Louis Farrakhan. (Or Madayn Murray O’Hair in her day.) They don’t represent anybody but crazy people.
Liberal, you keep claiming that the problem is limited to Fox and CNN, but you’ve got to know the problem is much more widespread then that. Most of the major syndicated religious shows that appear on the local channels are RRR, as are the late night and weekend filler shows that abound on the cable and satellite channels. Quit pretending(whether it’s to yourself or to others) that the RRR is limited to some fringe area.
He’s probably refering to Fox and CNN because those are the examples that gonzomax used.
Millions of crazy people. They have huge bankrolls and enormous holdings. That does not come from a few fringies. They are your voice and they are what I think when mainstream Christian is mentioned. You need more erudite spokesmen. But they would not raise money like these jerks can. By the amount of money ,property and radio and TV stations they own, you can surmise they are representing the masses of Christians,
I haven’t said it’s limited to them. They were the two mentioned by Gonzomax. I assume that he, like me, just uses them as placeholders to mean all such shows. I’m sorry that you decided to go to the gutter with this by calling me pretentious. You and I almost had a decent discussion for nearly three whole posts. Here are the points I made:
-
People who already work for a living don’t have time or resources to spare for political activism on the scale of Robertson.
-
Even if they did, Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, CNBC, E!, and all the rest wouldn’t invite them on their shows.
-
Even so, Robertson does not represent the views of mainstream Christianity (most of which he has condemned) or even his own denomination of Southern Baptists (as denunciations from their headquarters prove).
I’m not excusing anybody. I’m not saying it’s okay. I’m just saying that those are the facts as I see them. Nevermind how pretentious you think I am; just stay on track an argue against these points.
I’m not a mainstream Christian. Neither is Liberal. But if you want to remain willfully ignorant and continue to lump us in with Pat Robertson and his ilk, then there’s nothing more that can be done for you.
Where the hell did I call you “pretentious” 
- People who already work for a living damn well better find some way to organize to defend themselves. Those in the RRR also work for a living-the only difference is they’re willing to shout, also.
- Do you think the RRR sits on it’s collective behind and waits to be called upon by the media? They send out press releases and letters to the editors and letters to various companies by the truckload. Again, the “Squeeky Wheel” analogy.
- Robertson, to the mind of the vast viewing , listening and reading public DOES represent Christianity until a larger voice comes forth. That is the reality you are dealt, and the only reality you can play.
You claim to be a nonmainstream christian. That is a subset of the big christian organization that they are spokesmen for. Are you saying you do not share with Robertson and others most of your religious ideas. Are you claiming no agreement. Sorry I would believe you have much in common with them. That is why it is valid for people to put you in there, Your differences are very small . Robertson is an asshole ,but he still is part of your group.
Fine then. You are irrepairably ignorant. Hope that continues to work out for you.
Well, does non-mainstream Christian mean that you listen to a damned word that Pat Robertson says? If no, then I think it’s safe to say that he’s not part of his group.
Pat Robertson is not part of his group like Osama bin Laden is part of mainstream Islam. Sure, there are basic tenets and beliefs that are shared, but outside of that, beliefs and views get incredibly warped. It’s unfair to hang Robertson on the neck of “good” Christians the same way it’s unfair to hang bin Laden on “good” Muslims.
Let it go, dad.
It works for you. Is your Christianity different than his? Most of what you believe is in common with him. I am sure you would have to accept that. I suppose you don’t want god to strike people dead who say things against your own version of Christianity . But I do not know for sure. You share the bible and almost all his teachings. You may not like Robertsons politics but you must agree with nearly all that he represents. Is this where I say ,if you can not see the obvious relation to the Christian spokesman you are ignorant. Sorry ,that is for you steeped in religion to do.
No, people are divisive. We insinctively divide each other into “us” and “them,” and then hang all manner of insult on “them.” Getting rid of one of the categories into which we divide each other isn’t going to do anything to improve global harmony. We’ll just focus on something else as an excuse to kill each other. We, as a species, need to get over this automatic expectation that everyone act exactly like us, and the associated fear of anyone who doesn’t. If we can do that, it won’t matter how many different things people believe in. If we can’t do that, it won’t make a difference if we all end up believing in exactly the same thing.
Sadly, at least around here, the atheists aren’t much better about this than the theists.
No, I think most likely that Lord Ashtar shares some religious doctrines with Pat Robertson, but disagrees vehemently on the way Robertson puts them into practice.
What Robertson represents is hate and bigotry gilded by religion twisted to suit his own purposes. Sharing Pat Robertson’s putative religion does not mean that Lord Ashtar agrees with his political views.
Using Pat Robertson as a representative spokesman for Christianity is about as fair as using Madalyn Murray O’Hair as a representative spokesman for atheism; both are radical, polarizing, and parts of minorities within very diverse religious groups.
Additionally, we manufacture ways and reasons for there to be an “us” and “them”. We can’t leave things be.
I don’t feel put-upon in my daily life, and no apology is necessary. But I appreciate the sentiment.
You wrote: “Quit pretending(whether it’s to yourself or to others) that the RRR is limited to some fringe area.”
Pretend is the verb; pretense the noun; pretentious the adjective — all are from the same root. Pretense: “1. pretending or feigning” — Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
That’s what I’m saying. Their job is free-agent circus freak.
Saying crazy shit that gets attention. It isn’t just that they squeek. They squeek about commanding the weather and bombing the State Department. What exactly do you recommend that a moderate say to stand out as much as that? If someone called the press and said, “I believe that weather is a natural phenomenon,” would they ask him to come on?
I think that might have been true at some point for a brief time, but most everybody I know thinks he’s a nut. His own denomination thinks so. And come to think of it, I haven’t seen him on the Sunday shows (Meet the Press, etc.) in a long time.
Emphasis mine.
Damn straight you don’t. My Christianity is vastly different from Robertson’s, in ways you couldn’t even begin to imagine. But you don’t really care. Since I self-identify as Christian and Robertson self-identifies as Christian, we must think exactly alike. Sorry bub, but it doesn’t work that way.
You know, for someone who’s not sure what I believe, you seem to have no problem laying out my beliefs for me. You’re as bad as the fundamentalist Christian who is positive that all atheists are really theists deep down, they’re just really angry at God.
Neither do his supporters. But this somewhat old link gives the membership of the Christian Coalition at 400K +. Those 400K send money, and no doubt have jobs also.
They wouldn’t? A moderate Christian with this much support (and a good pr department) would no doubt get invited. The nuttiness isn’t what is getting him invited, it is the number of people - Christian people - behind him.
He’s drifted further into nuttiness, to be replaced by others just as bad but more under control. What “mainstream” Christian ministers have that clout? Ones that aren’t black, I mean. Jesse Jackson did pretty well for a while.
Just like in lasers, 400K people speaking in one voice through a looney are going to have more impact than 400K disorganized people speaking through a thousand moderate ministers.