[QUOTE=Liberal]
(1) A group of Philadelphia hard atheists (The Rational Response Squad) is broadcasting an Internet radio show targeted to teens in which they solicit blasphemy (denial of the Holy Spirit). The have had 800 responses.
[/QUOTE]
How, precisely, is it blasphemy for those who do not believe in the trinitarian god to deny it?
[QUOTE=Frank]
How, precisely, is it blasphemy for those who do not believe in the trinitarian god to deny it?
[/QUOTE]
The so-called “Blasphemy Challenge” intentionally plays off passages in the Gospels of Mark and Matthew in which Jesus claims that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin. The idea is to get people to record themselves ranking out the Holy Ghost. Whether it really counts as “blasphemy” if you don’t believe it, the particpants enthusiastically use the word themselves.
Just wanted to point out… being Buddhist doesn’t preclude being an atheist.
Example: ME. 
Anyways, this is a fascinating thread. I come from the unique position of having once been militantly Christian (as in, I brought my Bible with me to school every day.) I got a LOT of grief. I also totally deserved it; I was annoying as hell (I was 13.) I tended not to judge other people or concern myself with the behaviors of others… but people assumed I was judging them just by nature of the fact I was deliberately setting myself apart. And believe me, the “victim” ideology is there and highly touted. I read magazines for Christian teen girls (courtesy of that wonderful homophobe James Dobson) that declared Christians were universally despised but the more despised we were the more God loved us for it. My church sold books that implored me to actively and openly proselytize–we were warriors for God, we were! We were raised to believe we were a persecuted minority. You bet your ass I was praying at the flag-pole in school. God made us to be martyrs for his Son!
Now I am an atheist. I know nothing with certainty, so technically I would be agnostic, but atheist is a better reflection of my views or reflection on God/god/gods. I live near the campus of a very liberal college, and participate in a very very liberal “college within a college.” During my three year stay in the “freaks and geeks” dorm, I had a bisexual modern Satanist two doors down and a Marxist across the hall. We’re talking some serious diversity here (no, that’d be a lie… we were all liberals!)
And yet… and yet… when I’m mucking about town, I constantly run into issues. When I worked at a local restaurant, 90% of my co-workers just about had brain aneurysms when I told them I was an atheist Buddhist. (This wasn’t something I shouted from the rooftops either… it came when one of the kids consistently pestered me about being saved.) One woman was so upset just by the fact that I wasn’t Christian that she was unable to speak to me the rest of the night. Even my boss laughed at me. One guy then took to singing obnoxiously loud church hymns whenever he was around me. I mean LOUD, right in my ear. And from then on everything was a moral issue. If I snapped that I needed the mashed potatoes right now please, my attitude was a result of my fundamental lack of moral direction because I had not received Jesus Christ as my personal savior. :rolleyes:
And then there are the door-to-door types, the religious proselytizers. They won’t even touch me with a ten foot pole. I’ve had people ask me my religion all friendly-like and then walk away without so much as a good-bye when I tell them. (Part of it is my fault–some parts of Christianity give me the warm fuzzies/nostalgia, and I’m liable to be more willing to talk to proselytizing Christians about my life experiences/spirituality in great detail. This is a MIStaaaaake! They assume that just because I am willing to discuss these issues means I desperately want to be saved–not so!)
And then my MOTHER… at my wedding… at the last minute refused to sign as a witness to our non-religious ceremony until I agreed to pray with her and her friends. My marriage, she said, was only valid until it was sanctioned by God. The wedding had a very small Buddhist component (I mentioned the Buddhist concept of boddhicitta because I felt it embodied the kind of love my husband inspired me to cultivate.) When someone asked her about this, her response was, “Well, that’s how she feels for NOW… we’re working on that. wink wink”
WTF? I mean, WTF?
I am generally opposed to anybody cramming their beliefs down anyone else’s throat, atheist, Christian or otherwise. Personally I’m irritated beyond all belief at all the self-righteous atheism threads that pop up in GD. “Are Christians Stupid?” What a goddamn stupid question. People believe or they don’t… I know, because I’ve believed and I’ve not believed. It’s like turning on/off a light switch. You don’t get to choose what you believe. Some people never second-guess their own beliefs and then there are people like me, who have dramatic shifts in spiritual perspective and constantly worry about The Truth. Either way, it’s just the way people are wired. Intelligence has nothing to do with it. EMOTION has everything to do with it. If you ask me, even atheism is outside of rationality… the only REAL rational response to “Is there a God?” seems to be a throwing up of the hands and a resounding, “FUCK IF I KNOW!” That’s why I lack interest in threads that try to use rationality to validate something as emotional and personal and subjective as belief. In the month or so I’ve been here, I feel certain atheists are much more outspoken and condescending about their beliefs than the Christians.
However, I don’t find that to be the trend in every day life. On a national level there seems to be a growing distrust of atheists and people of other religions… but somehow broader concepts like science and rationality have been tacked on to what it means to be “atheist.” So intellectuals, artists, and SCIENTISTS are being demonized… and the Christians who do that, are of course STUPID… but it has less to do with the fact they are Christian and more to do with mind-numbing ignorance combined with constant societal reinforcement. You could slap those dumbasses into any religion and they’d find a way to be an embarrassment to humanity about it.
So do I feel like a victim? Not really. Do I feel there are true victims of organized religion? Sure. Homosexuals in the United States come to mind. My own experience is a petty annoyance-- I have never had my human rights violated for being an atheist. But there are people who are true victims of discrimination, and I WILL NOT shut up in standing up for their rights.
All of this, of course, IMHO.
[QUOTE=Hamadryad]
Hey hey, Debbie Schlussel has a blog post about this brou-ha-ha.My goodness, what a lovely soul she has.
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How does that even make sense? I’m an atheist, so I’m likely to become a Muslim extremist?
[QUOTE=Frank]
How, precisely, is it blasphemy for those who do not believe in the trinitarian god to deny it?
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Dude, ask the people doing it. I just report; you jerk the knee.
[QUOTE=whole bean]
I acknowledge the work of many theists in the establishment clause cases upthread.
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No problem. My point was that calling these people out isn’t something you do lightly - even if you have impecable religious credentials. They got God on their side, and they know Catholics aren’t real Christians anyhow.
[QUOTE=Raygun99]
How does that even make sense? I’m an atheist, so I’m likely to become a Muslim extremist?
[/QUOTE]
It was Debbie Schlussel: what part of that was supposed to make sense?
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
The so-called “Blasphemy Challenge” intentionally plays off passages in the Gospels of Mark and Matthew in which Jesus claims that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin. The idea is to get people to record themselves ranking out the Holy Ghost. Whether it really counts as “blasphemy” if you don’t believe it, the particpants enthusiastically use the word themselves.
[/QUOTE]
The thing that got me about the Nightline clip on this was the nerve of the theists to object to these kids targeting teenagers. Especially since I saw Jesus Camp last night. If the Christians give up their Sunday schools, then they can talk. Fuckin’ hypocrites!
[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
No, I don’t think we should be playing the “victim” card because no one knows you are an atheist unless you announce it.
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I have actually seen TONS of examples in my daily life where religion is tossed about like active sonar…looking for the return or lack of return.
When an athiest fails to reciprocate in kind when presented with religiously oriented pleasantries, the lack of response or “you too” type reply = not one of us.
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
However, I don’t find that to be the trend in every day life. On a national level there seems to be a growing distrust of atheists and people of other religions… but somehow broader concepts like science and rationality have been tacked on to what it means to be “atheist.” So intellectuals, artists, and SCIENTISTS are being demonized… and the Christians who do that, are of course STUPID… but it has less to do with the fact they are Christian and more to do with mind-numbing ignorance combined with constant societal reinforcement. You could slap those dumbasses into any religion and they’d find a way to be an embarrassment to humanity about it.
[/QUOTE]
Once upon a time, Ancient Rome dominated its known world through military might and the imposition of its culture upon the lands over which it held sway. It was a center of learning, of commerce, of advanced civilization in general.
It decayed into impotence and superstitious ignorance and descended into a centuries-long Dark Age.
Can’t happen to us? I very much fear we’re going to find out.
This is why I just interpret those religiously oriented pleasantries as just pleasantries. I’ll smile and respond with a secular pleasantry. They’ll either accept it as friendliness, which it usually is, or look confused, which can be pretty funny.
[QUOTE=Beaucarnea]
Won’t do any good. The vice-principal is the first one out the flagpole each morning. This what happened 4 years ago when the ACLU intervened: a letter was sent to the school board and the county attorney. The letter explained that several parents had expressed concern that children were being coerced into participating in prayer activity at the high school. Portions of the letter were read to the students over the loudspeaker one morning. The principal closed with “I want to make it very clear that students are not to be observed or overheard encouraging other students to participate in the silent prayer before school begins. I repeat: students caught encouraging participating in the Silent prayer must not be overheard. In this country, public prayer is merely a privilege, not a constitutional right, and we must be very careful not to have this privilege taken away.”
The next morning, the Christian students were seen loudly whispering encouragement to non-participating students. Teachers were seen winking, and making a big production of plugging their ears, whistling, or turning their back on the recruiters. The harassment of non-participating students and teachers got worse. Every teacher who had not been visible at the prayer meetings was suspect, as were several of the bolder non-participating students. Teachers who failed to show up at the meetings were ignored and treated with insolence. The overheard conversations were ramped up to include “Who do you think told on us? Who do you think reported us to the ACLU? Well, we all know which teachers don’t join hands with us…” and so on.
I just called Dad to ask him to read the announcement to me- and asked if the prayer circle was still meeting. He said yes, and that some local pastors and parents had been taking turns showing up to participate to show solidarity.
[/QUOTE]
It just occurred to me that such a statement, if brought forward in print, would be very easy to characterize as “marching orders.” And pretty transparent ones, at that. Anything the ACLU could do about that, especially in conjunction with testimony (or video) of the consequent behavior by the student body/faculty? In such a circumstance, I can think of far worse outcomes than having the school (or the school district) being placed under a consent decree monitored by a federal judge.
IANAL, BTW, so take that as a rosy scenario, if you wish.
I know this is the Pit, but I did want to give credence to the large percentage of Christians living in the United States who are consistently respectful of others’ beliefs. My Mother-in-Law is a very open-minded Catholic woman–she went so far as to put a Buddhist mantra on my wedding shower invitations and has purchased many Buddhist-themed books for me as gifts.
My devoutly Christian grandmother has never pressured me to subscribe to her belief system, and when I told my grandfather six years ago that I identified as a Buddhist atheist, he replied, “Huh. Did you know Buddhists are supposed to iron their grandfathers’ clothes for them two times a week? It’s not common knowledge, but you deserve to know…”
When we met, my husband was Catholic (now agnostic) and I rejected any form of spirituality whatsoever. Even before we started dating he was completely supportive of any beliefs I had and the life experiences that had led to them.
People who have love in their hearts just love, and they don’t place arbitrary limitations on that love. And there ARE loving people in the United States… they’re just much quieter than the dipshits.
I hope your grandfather’s still around. If he is, give him a big hug for me, okay?
Guaranteed. Grandpa’s my hero.
[QUOTE=Miller]
I, for one, support the seperation of Church and stateroom.
[/QUOTE]
IWIST 
You’ve had me laughing all week! You get especially high Marx for this one…
But what happens when you finally take a break from your family reunion in Louisiana? Come on! You know that’s what you’re really talking about!
[QUOTE=Hamadryad]
Here’s the transcript of the show; atheist segment starts …well, I had to hit “page down” 16-17 times to get to it. A couple of highlights:Some more!And what the hell; one more:Now, this is nothing like the whole show, or the whole segment … but it’s not misrepresentative. Go ahead and read the whole thing.
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Hey, thanks for the info. I’m really confused about this thread. To me, what these people were saying in the segment is asinine beyond all comprehension. I’m trying to figure out what the OP’s point is supposed to be. Stop me if I’m not following this: The OP links to a site which criticizes the people in that video for their ridiculous statements and utter hatred of atheists. He then says that he considers this criticism of the video as a “bid for martyrdom”, and suggests that it’s wrong.
I just have to say, what the fuck? 
What am I missing here?
[QUOTE=lowbrass]
The OP links to a site which criticizes the people in that video for their ridiculous statements and utter hatred of atheists. He then says that he considers this criticism of the video as a “bid for martyrdom”, and suggests that it’s wrong.
[/quote]
My point is that I have seen a number of groups claim to be the “last people it’s still okay to persecute” including Christians, poor whites, rich whites, southern whites, lawyers, fat people, smokers, ect. I hated to see atheists try and make a grab for that mantle, because that kind of martyrdom is not ennobling. It only provokes jeers from the opposition, and embarrassed-to-be-with-this-guy feelings from allies.
[QUOTE=SmartAleq]
B) If being able to accurately identify and label shit as shit makes me arrogant then I am more than proud to claim the label.
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Fine, you’re arrogant. Congratulations. :rolleyes:
Whether or not there is a God, why not let people have whatever belief they want if that’s what helps them get through life? I would call Christians ‘misguided’ rather than ‘stupid’. I feel sorry for people who cling to something that doesn’t make sense, but if that’s what they want to believe, then they are more than welcome to it. Just leave it out of my goverment and my bedroom.
You’re also more of an asshole than a lot of Christians I’ve met.
No, you’re not. See C) above.