# Atlantis question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 8, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989 "2005-11-08T00:58:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989/1 "2005-11-08T00:58:44Z")
Was watching National Geographic earlier and they were talking about the Nazca Lines (and making a claim that some of the lines were used to point to water sources…seemed plausable, but they used dousing to test it so :rolleyes: ) and Atlantis. Basically it was the same old thing…searching for Atlantis in ever conceivable place on earth (one guy put it in Bolivia of all places). Anyway, my question stems from something that was discussed a number of times in the show. Basically the story is that the Greeks got the story from the Egyptians (at least thats what Plato claimed) who told the story since before their civilization. Now, I always heard that the ONLY source for this story was Plato (making things lean towards the ‘completely made up’ explaination). The show though claimed that there is Egyptian corroboration of the Greek story. Is this true or complete BS? I’ve looked on the web but I don’t see anything definite. Anyone know for sure? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989/2 "2005-11-08T01:42:53Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Was watching National Geographic earlier and they were talking about the Nazca Lines (and making a claim that some of the lines were used to point to water sources…seemed plausable, but they used dousing to test it so :rolleyes: ) and Atlantis. Basically it was the same old thing…searching for Atlantis in ever conceivable place on earth (one guy put it in Bolivia of all places). > > Anyway, my question stems from something that was discussed a number of times in the show. Basically the story is that the Greeks got the story from the Egyptians (at least thats what Plato claimed) who told the story since before their civilization. Now, I always heard that the ONLY source for this story was Plato (making things lean towards the ‘completely made up’ explaination). The show though claimed that there is Egyptian corroboration of the Greek story. Is this true or complete BS? I’ve looked on the web but I don’t see anything definite. Anyone know for sure? > > -XT Plato puts in the mouth of Kritias (sometimes written Critias) the idea that Solon had gotten the Atlantis story from the Egyptians. [Cite](http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/Atlantis/timaeus_and_critias.html) As noted in that cite, the **only** independent ancient references to Atlantis are in Plato’s dialogues _Timaeus_ and _Kritias_. (There are other ancient sources, but they report the Plato story.) Depending on what you think that “Atlantis _really_ was,” there’s a plethora of sources. Our friend **David Waite** could supply you with a plethora of Theosophical writings on Atlantis, all with every bit as much authority as any given random MyHomePage citation. There are some interesting statements in ancient writings (Hittite, in particular) that appear to be allusions to the Thera eruption which may or may not have inspired the sunken lands/destroyed civilizations meme that the Atlantis story plays on. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989/3 "2005-11-08T01:48:38Z")
There was no Atlantis. _Plato made it up._ Certainly there are ancient “lost” civilizations. Some fit a few of the marks of Atlantis. But if you read what Atlantis really was like (huge walls made entirely out of metal, etc), then you have to know it’s made up. Is it possible that Plato subconsiously (or consiously) based his _entirely made up_ Atlantis on some old stories? Sure. But- he made it up. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989/4 "2005-11-08T01:52:38Z")
I agree DrDeth…I think he made it up as well (though the whole Thera/Minoan thing might have influenced his story I suppose). Was just looking for something solid on the shows claim that there are Egyptian sources for the story as I always heard Plato was the sole source. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989/5 "2005-11-08T15:29:13Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I agree DrDeth…I think he made it up as well (though the whole Thera/Minoan thing might have influenced his story I suppose). Was just looking for something solid on the shows claim that there are Egyptian sources for the story as I always heard Plato was the sole source. Apparently I misspoke myself. The reason that the “Unsolved Mysteries” type pseudoscience promoters claim that “there are Egyptian sources for Atlantis” is that **Plato** , the writer who mentioned (and most likely invented) it, _used the literary device_ of attributing the story back to the Egyptians, who allegedly told Solon about it, and the story came down to Plato and Socrates’s day via the great-grandfather of one of Socrates’s friends. By comparison, imagine **Cecil** wanting to illustrate a point about the Knights Templar legends in one of his columns , and claiming that his grandfather told him what _his_ grandfather heard from his friend Ben Franklin, who brought the information back from France when he was our ambassador there. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989/6 "2005-11-08T15:40:24Z")
Claims that Plato’s story can be confirmed from Egyptian records are usually variations on the idea that the god Thoth originally came from Atlantis. See, for example, [this webpage](http://www.atlantisquest.com/Hiero.html). (The fact that Thoth has often been thought to be the same as Hermes Trismegistus means that this idea has particularly appealed to many modern esoteric writers.) But, as we have seen in certain [recent](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=342039) [threads](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=343134), bolting together isolated bits of Egyptian mythology - or, worse, phoney Egyptian mythology - to fit a preconceived theory can be desperately unconvincing. The Thoth/Atlantis idea is no better. And there is no reason to think that what the Egyptians actually did believe about Thoth influenced Plato. Who, as others have said, was probably just making it all up anyway. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989/7 "2005-11-08T15:43:41Z")
Why can’t Atlantis just be the garbled oral history/legend of Santorini? We don’t know much but, 3500 years ago an advanced (for the time) civilization was wiped out by volcanic eruption and flooding. It was probably Minoan. This was the height of civilizations in the period. If someone is looking for the Atlantis of flying cars, probably should flag down Elvis’s UFO. Santorini or even Crete itself is a fairly good fit. Jim ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989/8 "2005-11-08T15:47:10Z")
If you haven’t encountered it, I strongly recommend L. Sprague de Camp’s book **Lost Continents** , which I think is still in print at Dover. Excellent coverage of all the lost continents (and Plato never claimed it as a “continent”, BTW) with a hefty Bibliography. [http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0486226689/103-9306395-7540623?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0486226689/103-9306395-7540623?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance) By the way, although i was impressed with the Thera/Santorini/Atlantis connection when I first heard it, I’ve become disenchanted through the years. I suspect any similarities are coincidental. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989/9 "2005-11-08T16:04:36Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > If you haven’t encountered it, I strongly recommend L. Sprague de Camp’s book **Lost Continents** , which I think is still in print at Dover. Excellent coverage of all the lost continents (and Plato never claimed it as a “continent”, BTW) with a hefty Bibliography. > > [http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0486226689/103-9306395-7540623?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0486226689/103-9306395-7540623?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance) > > By the way, although i was impressed with the Thera/Santorini/Atlantis connection when I first heard it, I’ve become disenchanted through the years. I suspect any similarities are coincidental. I am curious about the disenchantment. It is a excellent fit for the little Plato wrote about that has made it down to us. I would lump it together with rediscovery Troy. Finding a lost city does not make all the Iliad a fact, just supports that the legend was based on a real occurrence. Thera/Santorini the historical basis for Atlantis is not proven, but the best fit I have seen. Sounds like you may have read into this more than I have. Is **Lost Continents** fantasy or a study he made? I know him for his fantasy books. Jim ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989/10 "2005-11-08T16:28:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Is Lost Continents fantasy or a study he made? I know him for his fantasy books. deCamp is a sadly neglected author whose range is as broad as that of Asimov (a friend of about the same age), but for some reason de Camp never got the same exposure and name recognition as Asimov. His works include fantasy, science fiction, historical novels, history of science, and others. It’s too bad his straight historical novels never hit it off – his knowledge of ancient history and science was impressive. **The Bronze God of Rhodes** reads like Ken Follett’s **Pillars of the Earth** , only about the building of the Colossus of Rhodes, rather than a Medieval Cathedral. **Lost Continents** is fact. (And ignore the most recent poster on Amazon, who obviously doesn’t know what he’s talking about. de Camp would never refer to sources “before Plato”, or belittle prehistoric man.) So are **The Ancient Engineers** (a classic) and **Great Cities of the Ancient World**. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989/11 "2005-11-08T16:38:15Z")
I noticed the book was published in 1970. Do you feel it still offers up to date knowledge? I am thinking about buying it. Jim ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989/12 "2005-11-08T16:41:43Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > By comparison, imagine **Cecil** wanting to illustrate a point about the Knights Templar legends in one of his columns , and claiming that his grandfather told him what _his_ grandfather heard from his friend Ben Franklin, who brought the information back from France when he was our ambassador there. It would be easier just to claim that Ben Franklin knew a templar legend because he was a freemason, who are de facto templars and hid a ton of ancient gold that can only be found by putting lemon juice on the back of declaration of indepedence. Okay, maybe not easier or plausible, but no doubt potentially ludicious as far as box office goes. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989/13 "2005-11-08T17:00:10Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > I noticed the book was published in 1970. Do you feel it still offers up to date knowledge? > I am thinking about buying it. > > Jim It seemed reasonably up to date despite being 30 years old, and I read it last year. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989/14 "2005-11-08T17:58:09Z")
[quote] I noticed the book was published in 1970. Do you feel it still offers up to date knowledge? I am thinking about buying it. Jim[/quiote] IIRC, the 1970 date is the date of the Dover re-issue (Dover frequently reprints older texts in a new and less expensive paperback form, some recent, some very old). The actual publication date was, I think, in the 1950s. So, no, it’s not up-to-date, and doesn’t even cover the Santorini/Thera possibility. But it’s indispensable for its coverage of the topic, just like Odell Sheperd’s **The Lore of the Unicorn** is. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989/15 "2005-11-08T18:08:19Z")
I am drawing a blank on some of the details, but there are mesoamerican artifacts that are refered to as Atlantean, based on time, location and styles. Here is a [link](http://theartifact1.chainreactionweb.com/product_info.php?products_id=2037) to a museum store replica of an Atlantean statue. Of course it is only a name and has nothing to do with the mythic, pre-historic uber city state. Everyone should realize the true mystery is Mu. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989/16 "2005-11-09T02:45:13Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > I noticed the book was published in 1970. Do you feel it still offers up to date knowledge? > I am thinking about buying it. > > Jim It is a good read, and just about anything written AD offers as “up to date” info as can be had about Atlantis. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989/17 "2005-11-09T15:17:34Z")
> [@APB](#): > > Claims that Plato’s story can be confirmed from Egyptian records are usually variations on the idea that the god Thoth originally came from Atlantis. See, for example, [this webpage](http://www.atlantisquest.com/Hiero.html). (The fact that Thoth has often been thought to be the same as Hermes Trismegistus means that this idea has particularly appealed to many modern esoteric writers.) > > But, as we have seen in certain [recent](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=342039) [threads](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=343134), bolting together isolated bits of Egyptian mythology - or, worse, phoney Egyptian mythology - to fit a preconceived theory can be desperately unconvincing. The Thoth/Atlantis idea is no better. > > And there is no reason to think that what the Egyptians actually did believe about Thoth influenced Plato. Who, as others have said, was probably just making it all up anyway. This Thoth fella really gets around. The illustration in one of your links shows him to have the head of a bird with a long, thin bill. It’s remarkably similar to Slug Signorino’s drawings of Cecil Adams, though without the mortarboard. We can only speculate about Slug’s allusion. 🙂 Some sources even credit Thoth with the custom of decorating food with thick liquids. Today, we still speak fondly of **Thpaghetti Thoth.** 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989/18 "2005-11-09T17:23:58Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > Some sources even credit Thoth with the custom of decorating food with thick liquids. Today, we still speak fondly of **Thpaghetti Thoth.** 😉 You are so banned! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989/19 "2005-11-09T17:45:12Z")
> [@adam yax](#): > > Everyone should realize the true mystery is Mu. 😉 And what are we Lemurians, chopped liver? ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989/20 "2005-11-09T19:30:13Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Why can’t Atlantis just be the garbled oral history/legend of Santorini? > We don’t know much but, 3500 years ago an advanced (for the time) civilization was wiped out by volcanic eruption and flooding. It was probably Minoan. > This was the height of civilizations in the period. > > If someone is looking for the Atlantis of flying cars, probably should flag down Elvis’s UFO. > Santorini or even Crete itself is a fairly good fit. > > Jim Just so we have some source material here: In [Critias](http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html), Plato has the title character say: > [@Plato as Critias](#): > > Of the combatants on the one side, the city of Athens was reported to have been the leader and to have fought out the war; the combatants on the other side were commanded by the kings of Atlantis, which, as was saying, was an island greater in extent than Libya and Asia, and when afterwards sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to any part of the ocean. Now a TV special I saw a number of years ago followed some researchers who postied that the Ancient Greek phrase translated here as “greater in extent than Libya and Asia” is very similar to the phrase for “in between” or “in the middle of”, and may have ben botched in transcription. I don’t know any ancient Greek, so I can’t opine on the veracity of this. But it is my understanding that this notion is what led to Santorini being the candidate. Later: > [@Plato as Critias](#): > > Yet, before proceeding further in the narrative, I ought to warn you, that you must not be surprised if you should perhaps hear Hellenic names given to foreigners. I will tell you the reason of this: Solon, who was intending to use the tale for his poem, enquired into the meaning of the names, and found that the early Egyptians in writing them down had translated them into their own language, and he recovered the meaning of the several names and when copying them out again translated them into our language. My great-grandfather, Dropides, had the original writing, which is still in my possession, and was carefully studied by me when I was a child. Therefore if you hear names such as are used in this country, you must not be surprised, for I have told how they came to be introduced. The tale, which was of great length, began as follows > > I have before remarked in speaking of the allotments of the gods, that they distributed the whole earth into portions differing in extent, and made for themselves temples and instituted sacrifices. And Poseidon, receiving for his lot the island of Atlantis, begat children by a mortal woman, and settled them in a part of the island, which I will describe. Looking towards the sea, but in the centre of the whole island, there was a plain which is said to have been the fairest of all plains and very fertile. Near the plain again, and also in the centre of the island at a distance of about fifty stadia, there was a mountain not very high on any side. > > In this mountain there dwelt one of the earth born primeval men of that country, whose name was Evenor, and he had a wife named Leucippe, and they had an only daughter who was called Cleito. The maiden had already reached womanhood, when her father and mother died; Poseidon fell in love with her and had intercourse with her, and breaking the ground, inclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water, which he turned as with a lathe, each having its circumference equidistant every way from the centre, so that no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet. He himself, being a god, found no difficulty in making special arrangements for the centre island, bringing up two springs of water from beneath the earth, one of warm water and the other of cold, and making every variety of food to spring up abundantly from the soil. The ruins of the apparantly Minoan civlization on Santorini seem to indicate it could have conformed to this physical description, and earlier this year, I saw an item where geologists had located the volcano that created the earthquake that created the tsunami that took them out. It seemed fairly sound. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlantis-question/329989.md?page=2)