# Atlas Slapped... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 2, 2002, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951 "2002-11-02T02:47:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951/61 "2002-11-07T14:54:45Z")
Guin wrote: > [@](#): > > I think the point is that just because Rand allegedly had a big influence (and that is EXTREMELY debatable!), that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a good thing. The influence is well documented, and is not debatable at all. A [1991 Survey](http://www.loc.gov/loc/cfbook/bklists.html) by the Book-of-the-Month Club and the Library of Congress’ Center for the Book asked respondents to “name a book that had made a difference in their lives”. Number one was _The Bible_. Number two was _Atlas Shrugged_. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951/62 "2002-11-07T16:35:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Edward The Head \* > \*\* > > Ok, you say **so were** much like talking about baseball as a sport then saying so are football, soccer and ping pong. You are grouping them together. \*\* :rolleyes: All that means is that these things have something in common. Baseball, football, soccer and ping pong are all sports. That’s it. It does not mean that baseball players are also football or soccer players. In the same way, we can group racism, communism, fascism and Rand’s philosophy together, insofar as they all had major political influence (again, being generous in the case of Rand). No reasonable person would interpret this as a statement that Rand’s worldview was communist, fascist or racist. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > 1. The claim was made that Ayn Rand deserves credit because her philosophy “has been and still is a major influence in political thought.” > > But not by me, I said nothing about poltics.\*\* Naturally, and I never claimed otherwise. (The statement regarding politics came from **sleestak** , after all.) However, that objection is irrelevant to the question of whether my statement regards “Objectivism” (a horribly misnamed worldview, IMO) as being communist, fascist or racist. According to the basic rules of logic, it does not. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951/63 "2002-11-07T16:40:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Guin wrote: > > The influence is well documented, and is not debatable at all. > > A [1991 Survey](http://www.loc.gov/loc/cfbook/bklists.html) by the Book-of-the-Month Club and the Library of Congress’ Center for the Book asked respondents to “name a book that had made a difference in their lives”. Number one was _The Bible_. Number two was _Atlas Shrugged_. \*\* Yes, but **sleestak** ’s claim (to which **Guin** was responding) spoke specifically of _political_ influence, and that’s a much more difficult claim to substantiate. ---
**Author:** ![Banger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@Banger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banger)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951/64 "2002-11-07T19:17:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\* > Yes, but **sleestak** ’s claim (to which **Guin** was responding) spoke specifically of _political_ influence, and that’s a much more difficult claim to substantiate. \*\* If not a political influence, then what type of influence? The book is basically a novelization of Rand’s political philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951/65 "2002-11-07T20:08:25Z")
So? Do you see many Randians in government? (Yes, we know Greenspan) Does she have an influence on actual policy? Not that I’m aware of. I also resent the implication that because I disagree with her, don’t like her, and don’t think she was very profound or wise, that I didn’t “get” her. I did. I just didn’t like it. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951/66 "2002-11-07T23:25:22Z")
**Guinastasia** is correct. Rand may have intended her works to be political in nature, and she may have influenced many people, but this _still_ doesn’t mean that she’s had substantial political influence. There’s a huge logical step that’s missing – namely, evidence that the multitudes whom she influenced actually had a noticeable effect on political policy. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951/67 "2002-11-08T04:57:26Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by JThunder \* \*\* :rolleyes: All that means is that these things have something in common. Baseball, football, soccer and ping pong are all sports. That’s it. It does not mean that baseball players are also football or soccer players. In the same way, we can group racism, communism, fascism and Rand’s philosophy together, insofar as they all had major political influence (again, being generous in the case of Rand). No reasonable person would interpret this as a statement that Rand’s worldview was communist, fascist or racist.\*\* JT, lets assume someone made a statement like the following: “JT’s philosophy is about as valid as the Nazis, wife beaters and murderers…” Do you _really_ think that the statement has no bias? You linked Rand to Communism, Fascists and slavery. You did not link her to Freedom, Liberty and Justice which she stood up for. You purposely compared Rands philosophy to, and I quote: > [@](#): > > … communism, fascism and organized slavery. That doesn’t make these philosophies any more palatable You tried to use guilt by association to make Rand look bad. I called you on it and you tried to duck it by making up some BS arguement. JT, why do you only meantion Communism, Fascism and Slavery when you bring up Rand’s philosophy? Why don’t you compare her philosophy to other ideals like Democracy, freedom and liberty? I know why. It’s because you’d rather slander Rand than discuss real issues. Slee ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951/68 "2002-11-08T04:59:09Z")
D’OH, I didn’t close all the tags. Sorry, Slee ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951/69 "2002-11-08T06:55:51Z")
**sleestak** , did you put **any** thought into what you just said? Any thought whatsoever? To use your own example, suppose that someone _had_ said “JT’s philosophy is about as valid as the Nazis, wife beaters and murderers…” Would this person be calling me a Nazi? Or a wife beater? Or a murderer? **Obviously not!** That person would simply be saying, well, that my philosophy was as valid as Nazism, wife beating and murder. It would not, by any remote stretch of earthly imagination, amount to accusing me of those misdeeds – and I would **never** , in a million years, pretend that it did. I might take offense at this disagreement with my worldview, but I would never claim that this person was accusing me of such heinous acts. Can you not see the extreme illogic of what you just said? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951/70 "2002-11-08T07:00:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sleestak \* > \*\* > JT, why do you only meantion Communism, Fascism and Slavery when you bring up Rand’s philosophy? Why don’t you compare her philosophy to other ideals like Democracy, freedom and liberty? \*\* Oh, for crying out loud! It’s because you – **sleestak** – said that Rarn’s philosophy should be commended for its (alleged) political influence. I cited communism, fascism and slavery to demonstrate that political influence _is not necessarily a good thing_. That is the point which I was trying to make, which other readers understood, and which apparently continues to escape you. Did Rand champion democracy, freedom and liberty? Surely so – but that was not (repeat: **NOT** ) the issue at hand. So again, let’s emphasize this point. **Do you believe that having political influence is necessarily a good thing?** If so, how do you explain communism, fascism and racism? If not, what does that say about your defense of Rand’s worldview? ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951/71 "2002-11-08T13:03:57Z")
JT, > [@](#): > > If so, how do you explain communism, fascism and racism? If not, what does that say about your defense of Rand’s worldview? You really don’t get it do you? You keep associating Rands ideas with the worst philosophies in the world (Communism - 20 million plus killed, Fascism 6 million jews killed and slavery, well I don’t know how many died or lived life in that hell but it is a big number) You keep equating Rands world view with the nastiest pograms on earth then claim that you don’t mean any bias. Bullshit buddy. You admit that Rand stood for freedom, liberty and democracy. If that is the case why are you not contrasting Rands ideas with those of Thomas Jefferson or good old Abe? It’s called a cheap shot. While you may not believe it, the implication of a statement means as much, or maybe more, than the actual words. Your post implied that Rands beliefs were on the same scale as Lenin or Hitler. \Oh, BTW, did you stop beating your wife yet? \ Slee ---
**Author:** ![Gazelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Gazelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gazelle)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951/72 "2002-11-08T13:29:22Z")
I enjoyed _The Fountainhead_ but probably not for the reasons Ayn Rand want me to… It’s been ten years since I read it, but I remember vivid descriptions of architecture… I also liked the fact that the main character didn’t give in to pressure to change his designs. God, I hope I’m remembering this right. Sometimes being an avid reader is not a good thing; mixing 'em up is easy. ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951/73 "2002-11-08T14:00:51Z")
**sleestak** , just because Rand’s philosophy is based on capitalism it doesn’t mean that her philosophy is such a wonderful thing. I’d rather live under moderate European democratic socialism than Rand’s ideal extreme-capitolist nightmare. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951/74 "2002-11-08T14:48:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > **Faceit; the intepretation ascribed by sleestak and Edward the Head came from out of left field** _Right_ field. Definitely right field. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951/75 "2002-11-08T15:25:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sleestak \* > \*\* > You keep equating Rands world view with the nastiest pograms on earth then claim that you don’t mean any bias. Bullshit buddy. You admit that Rand stood for freedom, liberty and democracy. If that is the case why are you not contrasting Rands ideas with those of Thomas Jefferson or good old Abe? > \*\* Because such a comparison (not a contrast, BTW) would not help to support his POINT, which was that political influence IS NOT ALWAYS A GOOD THING. That point should have been obvious from his first post and has been explained multiple times since then, so I don’t know why you are having such difficulty with it. It does no credit to Rand to demonstrate such a lack of critical reasoning skills in your defense of her. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951/76 "2002-11-08T15:41:40Z")
**sleestak** , continue the hijack over [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=143291). ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951/77 "2002-11-08T17:32:28Z")
**sleestak** , it appears that the simple, elementary logic of this position continues to be lost on you. As **Lamia** said, the point should have been obvious to you from the very beginning, and this lack of rudimentary reasoning skills speaks poorly of Rand devotees. The accusation is NOT that Rand was a communist, a fascist, or a racist. In fact, I respectfully challenge you to find any statement in this thread where such statements were made. Rather, the accusation is that political influence is **not necessarily good**. To demonstrate this, I cited the heinous philosophies in question. This is not the same as saying that Ayn Rand advocated or practiced those philosophies. Is this clear to you yet? Or shall you continue with this rapid, irrational train of thought? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951/78 "2002-11-08T22:21:52Z")
Many Republicans are at least Rand-_ish_. Certainly, Ronald Reagan was. ---
**Author:** ![Banger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@Banger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banger)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951/79 "2002-11-09T08:06:28Z")
Well, we have at least proven that Rand’s impact has been to cause the creation of several SDMB threads, including a BBQ Pit thread! It may not be what the Objectivists are seeking, but it’s something 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atlas-slapped/134951.md?page=3)