# ATM or ATM Machine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 13, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648 "2006-05-13T16:21:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RockoSoBe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@RockoSoBe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RockoSoBe)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/1 "2006-05-13T16:21:32Z")
Call me stupid, but I’ve found that most Americans use this acronym improperly in a sentence. An ATM is obviously defined as an Automatic or Automated Teller Machine. So why do most people refer to an ATM as an ATM machine??? “I have to run to the ATM machine to get some money.” A bit redundant don’t you think? No one refers to SCUBA and says SCUBA apparatus or the CIA as the CIA agency. Funny how this has seemingly gone unnoticed by most people. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![carterba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@carterba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carterba)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/2 "2006-05-13T16:27:59Z")
This is a pet peeve of a lot of people. “ATM machine”, “MLB baseball”, “NFL football”, “PIN number”, etc. My feeling is that there’s a lot of redundancy in language anyway, so what’s the big deal? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/3 "2006-05-13T16:40:36Z")
> [@carterba](#): > > This is a pet peeve of a lot of people. “ATM machine”, “MLB baseball”, “NFL football”, “PIN number”, etc. My feeling is that there’s a lot of redundancy in language anyway, so what’s the big deal? Two of your examples (may) offer useful distinctions. MLB isn’t the only baseball and NFL isn’t the only football. But I really hate “ATM machine” and “PIN number.” They just bug me, and they lead me to make judgments about the intelligence of the person saying them that probably aren’t warranted. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/4 "2006-05-13T16:47:59Z")
“PIN number” is here to stay, because everybody has the same four-digit “PI number” (3[.]141). ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/5 "2006-05-13T16:53:18Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Two of your examples (may) offer useful distinctions. MLB isn’t the only baseball and NFL isn’t the only football. That’s the wrong direction to go in. An ATM isn’t the only machine. A PIN isn’t the only number. The question is whether ‘MLB’, ‘PIN’, ‘ATM’, ‘NFL’ are clear enough in contect to be used without repeating one of the words, and what else to do to provide context if they’re not. What’s next, the www web? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/6 "2006-05-13T16:53:47Z")
I generally only use “ATM,” but I will go back-and-forth between “PIN” and “PIN number.” What’s the big deal? It makes complete sense to me. “ATM” and “PIN” aren’t parsed for their constituent words–they’re their own linguistic entity. “Machine” and “number” are much more recognizable and natural nouns than “ATM” and “PIN,” so the inclination is to use the acronym as an adjective and the more familiar noun as the substantive. I mean, to me, “What’s your PIN” sounds a bit stupid. “What’s your PIN number,” is preferable to my ears. Obviously, mileage varies on the issue, but making intelligence judgments based on the usage of these words is a bit silly. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/7 "2006-05-13T19:31:36Z")
The phenomenon is known as RAS syndrome (which stands for Redundant Acronym Syndrome syndrome). I think it’s because certain acronyms and abbreviations are _too_ concise - they achieve brevity at the expense of clarity. If, apropos of nothing, you say “I think I’ve forgotten my PIN”, you could be talking about a range of different things - needlework, engineering, etc - but calling it ‘PIN number’, despite the redundancy, is unambiguous and still easier than saying ‘personal identification number’ - which is rather too many syllables. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/8 "2006-05-13T19:44:31Z")
Exactly. 1. The fact that the “M” stands for “machine” doesn’t make the phrase redundant. It would only be so if you used “AT machine machine.” The origin of the letter has nothing to do with anything in this context. 2. Redundancy is not an error, especially when it helps to clarify things. Getting “upset” over this is pure snobbishness and self-ego. “_I_ know what the words stand for (and I’m sooooo smart to notice this) and therefor I will sneer at the peons who don’t.” ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/9 "2006-05-13T19:59:57Z")
> [@RockoSoBe](#): > > No one refers to SCUBA and says SCUBA apparatus or the CIA as the CIA agency. Funny how this has seemingly gone unnoticed by most people. :smack: Scuba has been popularly, commonly assimilated as its own word, the original meaning of which is unknown, or unimportant to most people. It’s perfectly acceptable to write it “scuba” in small case, and it’s perfectly acceptable to refer to scuba gear or scuba apparatus. Same with laser light. Or radar detection. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/10 "2006-05-13T20:26:33Z")
> [@RockoSoBe](#): > > No one refers to […] the CIA as the CIA agency. Funny how this has seemingly gone unnoticed by most people. :smack: Google “CIA agency” with quotes. I don’t particularly like the usage, nor do I hate it, but it’s hardly the absolute you’ve given. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/11 "2006-05-13T20:37:58Z")
This “redundancy” is exactly the way the English language works. It is the opposite of wrong to use ATM machine. It’s the way it should be given the way the language operates. **pulykamell** is exactly correct that the abbreviation has become its own linguistic entity with the original meaning forgotten, just the way that thousands of English words no longer have the same meaning as they did in the original Latin or whatever. We’ve even taken it further to have OPEC nation rather than OPEC country. The latter would actually be more “proper” than the former, but both can be found in good speech. There have been a thousand threads on this over the years, and I don’t understand why. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/12 "2006-05-13T20:57:57Z")
I can see where “PIN number” can be useful, but what else can “ATM” mean in general use other than Automated Teller Machine? There are other meanings for it, sure, but they’re all occupationally specific and easily differentiated based on context; you don’t need to hear the word “machine” to know whether someone’s talking about banking, air traffic control, amateur telescope making, pornography, biology, chemistry or an airport. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/13 "2006-05-13T21:21:07Z")
> [@Dr. Drake](#): > > everybody has the same four-digit “PI number” (3[.]141). To be pedantic, the closest 4-character representation would be 3[.]142. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/14 "2006-05-13T22:00:58Z")
> [@RockoSoBe](#): > > So why do most people refer to an ATM as an ATM machine??? Simple answer: _I_ don’t. You’re obviously not hanging out with the right kind of people. However, I have to agree that saying “PIN number” can be useful in certain instances, lest they think you are talking about supplies you will need in order to sew your baby’s knickers. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/15 "2006-05-13T22:06:42Z")
you could always call it a PIN code instead. That way there is no redundancy. ---
**Author:** ![ASAKMOTSD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@ASAKMOTSD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASAKMOTSD)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/16 "2006-05-13T22:23:09Z")
Isn’t this like a “Hot Water Heater”? If it is hot, why heat it? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/17 "2006-05-13T23:57:13Z")
Apparently people selling them make this mistake too, per our Google ads: Triton ATM Machines A leading vendor of Triton ATMs - Sales, training and processing svcs [www.cgiatm.com/](http://www.cgiatm.com/) Automated Teller Quotes Easily Compare Prices & Services for Automated Teller Machines! > **[ATM Machines Price Quotes From Qualified Sellers | BuyerZone](https://app.buyerzone.com/retail/atm-machines/price-quotes/)** > > Answer a few questions about your purchase, we'll match you with pre-screened sellers, and receive customized ATM Machines price quotes today. ATM Machine Sales We Sell, Place and Process ATM Machines Nationwide. Call Us Now! > **[Buy or Lease ATMs, ATM Equipment, ATM Management, Machine Service](https://www.cordfinancial.com/)** > > CORD Financial Services offers a wide array of ATM solutions for any type and size of business. ATMs from Nautilus Hyosung, Genmega, Triton, Hantle. ATM Processing, ATM Cash Management, ATM Transaction, ATM Distribution, ATMs for Banks, ATMs for... ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2006, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/18 "2006-05-14T00:14:23Z")
We could just claim that we are saying “PINumber”, no more pesky redundancy. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2006, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/19 "2006-05-14T00:26:56Z")
Can I call it an ATM teller machine? 😉 I never liked the term “SCUBA gear” because then you’re really calling it “self-contained underwater breathing apparatus gear” and the “gear” seems redundant. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/20 "2006-05-14T00:27:42Z")
Another person chiming in with “our language is redundant and it repeats itself, so you’d probably be better to accept and get used to it.” It’s all around us, really, from SWAT teams to “Big, Fat, Greek Weddings.” A lot of people don’t notice it because it’s so common. I mean, it’s a neat realisation when someone points it out, but I don’t think it should really warrant more than a casual “huh, that’s neat.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648.md?page=2)