# ATM or ATM Machine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 13, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648 "2006-05-13T16:21:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Staggerlee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/staggerlee/32/3134_2.png) [@Staggerlee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staggerlee)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/61 "2006-05-15T15:09:20Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > Posh does not stem from port out, starboard home. That’s an urban legend. I must emphasise that that was a joke. If I wasn’t so hungover it might have been better, and I might have been able to stomach the use of a smiley… ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/62 "2006-05-15T18:03:51Z")
> [@chrisk](#): > > That’s the wrong direction to go in. An ATM isn’t the only machine. A PIN isn’t the only number. > > The question is whether ‘MLB’, ‘PIN’, ‘ATM’, ‘NFL’ are clear enough in contect to be used without repeating one of the words, and what else to do to provide context if they’re not. That is the wrong direction to go as well. Aside from the argument as to whether redunancy is good or evil, hopefully this will help define what redunancy is. MLB and NFL are trademarked organization names, not the name of a sport. MLB baseball refers to the sport of baseball as played by MLB teams. Little League Baseball and Major League Baseball are two different organizations. The games played by them are MLB baseball and LLB baseball (they have slightly different rules). No redundancy, just a necessarily repeated word. There is [another common meaning for ATM](http://fcit.usf.edu/network/chap2/chap2.htm#ATM) besides automated teller machine but I doubt there could ever be confusion between the two based on context. A PIN isn’t the only number but PIN can’t mean anything but a number, unless, as other posters have noted, you confuse it with the pin; again, unlikely in context. One test for redunancy might be whether people would use the same redunancy if the initialism were fully spelled out. You could have a situation where “Major League Baseball baseball” could be used without a blink (“I caught a foul ball at the Orioles game and now I have an official Major League Baseball baseball”), but nobody would ever say “personal identification number number.” ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/63 "2006-05-15T18:10:47Z")
> [@d1gger](#): > > Isn’t this like a “Hot Water Heater”? If it is hot, why heat it? So that it doesn’t get cold again. The insulation isn’t THAT good, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/64 "2006-05-15T19:46:30Z")
It’s darkly appropriate that this redundancy thread is seeing every last one of its main points repeated over and over and over… ---
**Author:** ![Honey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honey/32/5074_2.png) [@Honey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honey)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/65 "2006-05-15T20:18:55Z")
And VIN #. ---
**Author:** ![jawdirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df705f/32.png) [@jawdirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jawdirk)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/66 "2006-05-15T20:43:47Z")
> [@BoringDad](#): > > What has not been noted in the thread up to this point is that common usage almost never uses acronyms as nouns, even if they were originally intended as such. To use an acronym as a noun seems very clumsy to me. Thus I am not suprised that we end up with so many acronyms used as adjectives that modify a noun that are nominally part of the acronym, whether the acronym is clear on it’s own or not. Exactly, so is everyone listening? If you want to avoid your acronym being used redundantly, make sure that the acronym is for a part of speach that can be used like an adjective. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/67 "2006-05-15T23:04:52Z")
> [@jawdirk](#): > > Exactly, so is everyone listening? If you want to avoid your acronym being used redundantly, make sure that the acronym is for a part of speach that can be used like an adjective. Hey, I been checking my spelling with spellcheck. Hoosier grammer! ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/68 "2006-05-15T23:33:40Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Scuba has been popularly, commonly assimilated as its own word, the original meaning of which is unknown, or unimportant to most people. It’s perfectly acceptable to write it “scuba” in small case, and it’s perfectly acceptable to refer to scuba gear or scuba apparatus. Same with laser light. Or radar detection. I concur. Although I, personally, avoid saying “ATM machine” or “PIN number”, I can see how the original, full expansion of the abbreviation becomes lost to conscious thought. For those two things, and possibly others, it’s pretty clear from the the context what’s meant, even if I don’t say ‘machine’ or ‘number’. If I’m talking to someone at the bank and say I need a PIN, it’s obvious that I don’t mean a small sharp piece of metal. Same thing if I ask for the ATM. On the other hand, I don’t go SCUBA diving, but does anyone just say SCUBA without tacking on “gear” or “equipment”? “Where’s my SCUBA?” just sounds odd to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/69 "2006-05-16T00:15:48Z")
It helps distinguish when I am talking about Anti Tank Missiles and Automated Teller Machines. Think of the problems that could be caused when asking for an ATM so you can get money out from the bank. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/70 "2006-05-16T03:11:02Z")
ATM machine is an abomination since if you say ATM is clear what is being discussed. Since the purpose of speech is communication, some slow-thinking folk might find “PIN number” less ambiguous than pin, which has other meanings. Though these should be clear from the context, you could cook up some scenario where it wasn’t. So PIN number, though redundant, bothers me a little less. “Input your pin. I’m not carrying a pin.” This may seem far-fetched, but I’ve seen enough little old ladies who have enough getting $20 out of the ATM as it is without additional “obstacles”. Some folks can’t set the VCR machine 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/71 "2006-05-17T00:42:13Z")
It’s darkly appropriate that this redundancy thread is seeing every last one of its main points repeated over and over and over… ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/72 "2006-05-17T01:08:04Z")
Hee hee hee. **CookingWithGas** said “darkly appropriate”. And on a thread fulla grammer nazis, too. 😛 mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/73 "2006-05-17T01:42:18Z")
Ooh I hate ATM Machine. I was going to post to thisd at work today, but I was busy working on a MSDS sheet. ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/74 "2006-05-17T04:04:58Z")
A question for the grammar nazis. The GNs I associate with insist that in order to be an acronym the initials _must_ be pronounced as a word. Therefore PIN, RADAR, SCUBA, UNICEF, UNESCO and LASER are acronyms, while NFL, CBS, ATM, and MLB would not qualify. Is this the grammar nazi position around these parts, or not? And where does NAZI fit in, anyways? Depending on the GN ruling, what is the Gaudereian status of an OP complaining of a misused acronym if the initials in question don’t qualify? ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/75 "2006-05-17T15:19:37Z")
> [@Quint](#): > > A question for the grammar nazis. The GNs I associate with insist that in order to be an acronym the initials _must_ be pronounced as a word. Therefore PIN, RADAR, SCUBA, UNICEF, UNESCO and LASER are acronyms, while NFL, CBS, ATM, and MLB would not qualify. Is this the grammar nazi position around these parts, or not? And where does NAZI fit in, anyways? > Depending on the GN ruling, what is the Gaudereian status of an OP complaining of a misused acronym if the initials in question don’t qualify? Good point. It was on these boards that I learned the difference between an acronym and an initialism. However, I also learned that we must be descriptive not prescriptive, and since enough people say acronym for both, it must be OK. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/76 "2006-05-17T18:57:59Z")
One thing I learned (perhaps erroniously) is that there is one board with many forums. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/77 "2006-05-17T19:04:09Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Hee hee hee. **CookingWithGas** said “darkly appropriate”. > And on a thread fulla grammer nazis, too. 😛 > mangeorge Whoosh. See prior post from \*_fetus_. ---
**Author:** ![Jayrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Jayrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayrot)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/78 "2006-05-17T21:11:39Z")
Ahh, the ol’ [Prescriptive vs Descriptive](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescription_and_description) debate. Sorry folks, but PIN number will win out in the end if enough people use it. We descriptive linguists have the incredible force of a dynamic, popular, and powerful language on our side. **I mean come on.** You’ve got to just accept that fact that language changes significantly over time. What is incorrect at one point in time, may come to be correct later because of common usage. Just because at the moment you happen to know the original meaning of a word (or, say, the ‘N’ in PIN), doesn’t mean that everyone else does. There are surely a great many words you use now, for which you aren’t aware of the original meaning. _“[In] Old English, meat, (or rather mete), which referred to all forms of solid food while flesh (flæsc) referred to animal tissue, and food (foda) referred to animal fodder. Meat was eventually restricted to flesh of animals, then flesh restricted to the tissue of humans and food was generalized to refer to all forms of solid food (Jeffers & Lehiste).”_ > **[Semantic change](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_shift)** > > Semantic change (also semantic shift, semantic progression, semantic development, or semantic drift) is a form of language change regarding the evolution of word usage—usually to the point that the modern meaning is radically different from the original usage. In diachronic (or historical) linguistics, semantic change is a change in one of the meanings of a word. Every word has a variety of senses and connotations, which can be added, removed, or altered over time, often to the extent that co... ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/79 "2006-05-17T21:31:45Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Whoosh. See prior post from \*_fetus_. No, no whoosh. Not that I’m difficult to whoosh. I was playing along. You were last in line is all, and had the audacity to repeat the phrase. You were, in fact, brilliantly audacious. 😉 BTW; is this a good deal? “propane heater, 50,000-60,000, 80,000 BTU, 1 yr. old, $60.00.” mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648/80 "2006-05-17T21:38:55Z")
> [@fetus](#): > > … but what else can “ATM” mean in general use other than Automated Teller Machine… I hate to mention it but in the adult-film industry, ATM is a common acronym, and I’m fairly certain you’d never find the word “machine” after it. hint: M stands for mouth [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atm-or-atm-machine/356648.md?page=5)