# Atomic Bombings of Japan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803 "2009-11-24T17:52:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/221 "2009-11-28T02:02:20Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I am not arguing that Japan was at fault for the war. So debate yourself to your hearts content. But it is how we finished it that I think was wrong. So, what else should we have done? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/222 "2009-11-28T02:02:39Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Was he kind enough to cc Harry Truman? Was he kind enough to cc the soldiers fighting to the death or the civilians who were trained to fight and/or kill themselves? A country that would not surrender after the first nuclear weapon was seriously bent on taking everybody down with them to hell. The death and destruction from conventional bombing alone would have killed more civilians. A land war would have multiplied that many times. The US army would not be fighting Japanese soldiers, they would be fighting Japan. There is nothing, absolutely nothing pretty about war. Truman was faced with a difficult decision and he made the correct one. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/223 "2009-11-28T02:20:39Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > So, what else should we have done? I’m curious about this myself. Gonzo’s already condemning the people in 1945 for not having the knowledge of people in 2009, so let’s see what his 2009 knowledge tells him is what the 1945 people _should_ have done instead. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/224 "2009-11-28T02:41:25Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The problem is you accept the military analysis. I do not because our military lies to us over and over. The explanation they proffer for the bomb is as much BS as anything else they feed us. I question the first bomb. The Nagasaki bomb was inexcusable. You have yet to prove this is so. > [@Zoe](#): > > This particular subject is one that really upsets me if I dwell on it, so I haven’t read your comments. It’s not because I think there are easy answers or that the truth can’t be outside of what I believe. I acknowledge that the bombings _may_ have saved lives. I’m not sure we’ll ever know. > > I don’t think the number of lives saved actually matters once we are considering an act that kills 200,000 civilians. When we write about lost children and babies – about burned young girls and their lovers – and mothers rotting from radiation sickness – when we talk about vaporizing old men and their life stories – there is no counterweight to balance the other side that will ever make those choices bearable. I had rather see the throats of angels slit and their broken wings scattered on the pathway to some nasty god. And this means…what? I hate reading about Auschwitz and Joseph Mengele. I hate reading about the Rape of Nanking. I hate reading about Unit 731. I hate reading about Once again, people have pointed out that conventional bombing killed just as many, if not more. I am not arguing that what happened is not horrid. I am saying that we were right in using the bombs. I wouldn’t make a very good soldier myself – I’m far too emotional. I’m not saying that there’s no place for ethics in war. HOWEVER, saying, “well, people were KILLED!!!” Sadly, that’s going to happen. The Japanese were ready for it…and were more than willing to accept that, as long as they got what they wanted. I suggest you DO read the rest of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/225 "2009-11-28T02:43:07Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > So, what else should we have done? > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m curious about this myself. Gonzo’s already condemning the people in 1945 for not having the knowledge of people in 2009, so let’s see what his 2009 knowledge tells him is what the 1945 people _should_ have done instead. Seems pretty clear he thinks we should have just invaded a la D-Day in Europe and to hell with all of the consequences of that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/226 "2009-11-28T02:54:02Z")
Well, if there’s to be no atomic bomb, I figure after the Americans suffer their 50,000th casualty in the invasion attempt (the end of the first week, tops, and that’s being wildly generous), the public pressure to firebomb Japan for six months straight becomes irresistible and Japan gets torched to the ground, its culture and population essentially obliterated by purely conventional means. …ummmmmmm… yay? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/227 "2009-11-28T03:02:33Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I question the first bomb. The Nagasaki bomb was inexcusable. The first bomb didn’t get the job done; there’s _ **no** _ question about whether it went too far, as it didn’t go far _ **enough.** _ You can question whether the Nagasaki bomb was excusable or excessive; Hiroshima isn’t really open to the same kind of second-guessing. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/228 "2009-11-28T03:03:13Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Seems pretty clear he thinks we should have just invaded a la D-Day in Europe and to hell with all of the consequences of that. That was stupid. Totally misses the debate. Come back with something next time. Perhaps bring pie. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/229 "2009-11-28T03:05:09Z")
If a D-Day style invasion wasn’t your chosen alternative, what is? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/230 "2009-11-28T03:08:11Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > That was stupid. Totally misses the debate. Come back with something next time. Perhaps bring pie. And when come back, bring back viable option for bringing about the unconditional surrender of Imperial Japan in an option that would kill fewer civilians than the bomb. We had do to something, and all the options were unpleasant. We know that the bombs were unpleasant - that’s what war is. Ideally the Japanese would have surrendered after Potsdam, or even after Hiroshima. But that’s a fantasy world that ignores reality. Maybe FDR’s ghost could have defeated Japan on a unicorn, then we wouldn’t have needed those evil bombs either. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/231 "2009-11-28T03:10:52Z")
Indeed. No atomic bombs. No invasion. What, sit and wait them out? Seal them off forever? 😕 Sheesh. And _I’m_ the stupid one?? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/232 "2009-11-28T03:12:34Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > And when come back, bring back viable option for bringing about the unconditional surrender of Imperial Japan in an option that would kill fewer civilians than the bomb. Hasn’t he addressed that already? > [@](#): > > 1. Demonstrating the bomb on a nearby unpopulated island would have been sufficient. Of course, actually demonstrating the bomb on Hiroshima wasn’t sufficient, so I don’t know why he thinks demonstrating it on an unpopulated island would have been sufficient. But that’s apparently his argument, no? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/233 "2009-11-28T03:14:24Z")
I perhaps erroneously thought that **gonzomax** had accepted the quite reasonable retort, since I saw no counter-argument. But he still argues against the bomb, so there must be some other option, right? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/234 "2009-11-28T03:17:50Z")
As mentioned before, I was told by a History prof that blowing the top off of Mt. Fuji was seriously considered. The mountain is their spiritual home and visible from a large area. The thinking was if they had gone with that, maybe they could have destroyed their will to fight on. I believe the prof said they finally decided they did not want to do permanent damage to such a potent symbol. Plus they only had a couple of bombs at the time and did not want to waste them, in case they were wrong about the effects of defacing Mt. Fuji. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/235 "2009-11-28T03:18:00Z")
Wow, I ain’t seen a one-sided beating this bad since that city got nuked… you know the one I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/236 "2009-11-28T03:21:50Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > As mentioned before, I was told by a History prof that blowing the top off of Mt. Fuji was seriously considered. The mountain is their spiritual home and visible from a large area. The thinking was if they had gone with that, maybe they could have destroyed their will to fight on. I believe the prof said they finally decided they did not want to do permanent damage to such a potent symbol. Plus they only had a couple of bombs at the time and did not want to waste them, in case they were wrong about the effects of defacing Mt. Fuji. I can’t find a cite online for this, but it might have been a possibility. However, knowing the national character of Japan at the time this may have actually had the reverse effect, enraged those who were not particularly hardline before the event. Bombing cities (even with a really big bomb) was a regular part of warfare, but destroying a literal part of the Japanese nation? I’m not surprised that they didn’t chance it. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/237 "2009-11-28T03:22:30Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Indeed. No atomic bombs. No invasion. What, sit and wait them out? Seal them off forever? 😕 [TRANSMANIACON](http://www.darkecho.com/JohnShirley/transmaniacon.html) Baby, Fortress America! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/238 "2009-11-28T03:51:19Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > That was stupid. Totally misses the debate. Come back with something next time. Perhaps bring pie. Then what is your answer as to how the allies should have ended the war? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/239 "2009-11-28T04:07:08Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The problem is you accept the military analysis. I do not because our military lies to us over and over.The explanation they proffer for the bomb is as much BS as anything else they feed us. The explanation they proffer for the bomb is as much BS as anything else they feed us. The problem is that you think we use only the US military as a source. I do not as I consider myself to be more diverse and thus can see that the Japanese were nowhere near close to folding as you claim (without evidence). > [@](#): > > I question the first bomb. The Nagasaki bomb was inexcusable. In case you did not notice, Japan did not surrender after the first bomb. Heck, it was only because the Emperor decided to override his military and evade a coup attempt that Japan surrendered after Nagasaki. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/240 "2009-11-28T04:14:46Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > However, knowing the national character of Japan at the time this may have actually had the reverse effect, enraged those who were not particularly hardline before the event. Bombing cities (even with a really big bomb) was a regular part of warfare, but destroying a literal part of the Japanese nation? I’m not surprised that they didn’t chance it. Yes, that could have been a final consideration, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803.md?page=13)