# Atomic Bombings of Japan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803 "2009-11-24T17:52:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/281 "2009-11-29T02:02:43Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > The heart of it. That and this: \*\*Every atomic weapon should be destroyed and every location that can make them should be leveled. \*\* All it lacked was the mention of unicorns. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/282 "2009-11-29T02:08:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Leahy also said: “This is the biggest fool thing we have ever done. The bomb will never go off, and I speak as an expert in explosives.” > > So what did _he_ know? Yes he should have been a nuclear scientist and understood the weapon. Of course the only people who did were at the Manhattan Project. There was no such bomb until that time. That is a very poor response. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/283 "2009-11-29T02:21:43Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Yes he should have been a nuclear scientist and understood the weapon. Of course the only people who did were at the Manhattan Project. There was no such bomb until that time. That is a very poor response. Well, actually, the theory behind the bomb wasn’t a secret at all - it was known to probably every university physics professor. What was secret was the massive engineering project necessary to enrich the uranium and build the casing. In any case, you acknowledge that Laehy, despite his claimed knowledge of explosives, was not expert in this _kind_ of bomb. Is it not also possible that despite his displayed military knowledge, he was clueless about Japanese determination? And does cherry-picking quotes prove anything, ever? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/284 "2009-11-29T02:32:25Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Yeah, I am beginning to think we’re being, err, dragged along by a line, so so speak. I don’t know, a joke would have to be funny. This is just embarrassing. > [@gonzomax](#): > > He is a fucking general in charge and has access to information the field soldiers did not. That is one reason. There was no mutiny. We have soldiers in Iraq that have been there longer. Another is he agrees with me. therefore his opinion has more credibility. [This](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soemu_Toyoda) guy was the head of the Japanese Navy and contradicts you. But clearly we can safely dismiss his viewpoints since they don’t agree with \*\*gonzomax’\*\*s fantasy 1945 where those poor Japanese were trying to surrender all along, but the evil old Allies just wouldn’t let them; > [@](#): > > Q. In effect, then, the Navy was in favor of peace whatever the basis? > > A. At the time that peace discussion [with the USSR] were taking place, of course we had not heard of the POTSDAM Declaration; it had not come out yet. We did not think, however, that the actual situation, if and when the war should end, should be quite so stern as under the term of the declaration, and the same is true as regards the CAIRO Declaration. We looked upon that as a declaration but not as one whose terms would be actually applied to us. By way of possibility of reducing these terms, if you should continue pushing the war, we would demand of you the heavy sacrifice when your landing operations should commence in HONSHU. > **[USSBS: Interrogations of Japanese Officials -- Admiral TOYODA Soemu](http://ibiblio.net/hyperwar/////AAF/USSBS/IJO/IJO-75.html)** > > United States Strategic Bombing Survey: > Interrogations of Japanese Officials. Nav. No. 75; USSBS No. 378 -- Admiral TOYODA Soemu ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/285 "2009-11-29T02:36:01Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, actually, the theory behind the bomb wasn’t a secret at all - it was known to probably every university physics professor. What was secret was the massive engineering project necessary to enrich the uranium and build the casing. > > In any case, you acknowledge that Laehy, despite his claimed knowledge of explosives, was not expert in this _kind_ of bomb. Is it not also possible that despite his displayed military knowledge, he was clueless about Japanese determination? > > And does cherry-picking quotes prove anything, ever? Very funny post. congratulations. Completely illogical though. Nuclear physics was as arcane as anything you can imagine in 1945. Does that mean he did not know the Japanese were going to attack us with sticks until they all died. nope. They have nothing in common. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/286 "2009-11-29T02:38:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And does cherry-picking quotes prove anything, ever? Sure it does! “Man will not fly for a thousand years!” - Wilbur Wright - The guy who proved man would never fly. “I know nothing of paintings or sculptures, but I know fortifications” - Michelangelo, known for his fortifications and nothing else. These are EXPERTS. They know STUFF! The must be completely and utterly RIGHT! PROOF! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/287 "2009-11-29T02:41:39Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Very funny post. congratulations. Completely illogical though. Nuclear physics was as arcane as anything you can imagine in 1945. Does that mean he did not know the Japanese were going to attack us with sticks until they all died. nope. They have nothing in common. [I think the joke is on you.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fission#Artificial_nuclear_fission) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/288 "2009-11-29T02:52:32Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Nuclear physics was as arcane as anything you can imagine in 1945. Arcane? The Nobel Prize for Chemistry was awarded in 1944 for the discovery of nuclear fission, which had taken place six years earlier. This wasn’t some obscure secret knowledge known only to a few. > [@](#): > > Does that mean he did not know the Japanese were going to attack us with sticks until they all died. nope. They have nothing in common. I don’t know what he did not know, only that we have quotes from people who clearly _did_ know, and they contradict Leahy and you. Will you acknowledge the mass suicides and banzai charges on Okinawa? They clearly show a pattern of fanatical refusal to surrender. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/289 "2009-11-29T03:00:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > They clearly show a pattern of fanatical refusal to surrender. As do statements by the Japanese High Command; \*“…the Japanese Empire has no alternative but to fight on with all its strength for the honor and existence of the Motherland.[40]” “By way of possibility of reducing these terms, if you should continue pushing the war, we would demand of you the heavy sacrifice when your landing operations should commence in HONSHU.” “The sooner the Americans come, the better…One hundred million die proudly.” “…if we are ready to sacrifice a million men we will be able to inflict an equal number of casualties upon them. If the enemy loses a million men, then the public opinion in America will become inclined towards peace, and Japan will be able to gain peace with comparatively advantageous conditions” “…The military representatives, however, held out for proposing additional terms”\* All of this points to the overall Japanese strategy. The would wait for Operation Downfall and make it their number one priority to inflict casualties by any means possible, thereby breaking Allied morale and forcing a peace on their own terms. The bomb threw a spanner into this bloody plan. And thank God it did. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/290 "2009-11-29T03:04:26Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Accepted their upcoming surrender. You do know we were aware they asked the USSR to help us take their surrender, aren’t you. They just wanted to keep the emperor . They were in no position to make demands, and they knew it. I suppose the fact they knew they were whipped and were trying to give up is beyond your ability to understand. > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > _What_ upcoming surrender? It’s been cited numerous times that the Japanese were preparing for a fight to the death, to bloody the nose of the Allies so badly that they would have no choice but to make peace on Japanese terms. > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > And we have shown multiple times that the Japanese were not ready to surrender. They were ready to resist an Allied invasion. I guess it’s like he keeps saying. It’s understandable that he should feel the need to convince himself of something that is so wrong. > [@hansel](#): > > No you wouldn’t. You’ve plainly invested so much in the idea that it’s wrong that the mountains of evidence against your interpretation won’t move you. Your belief is willful and a-rational. Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/291 "2009-11-29T03:08:27Z")
Again you quote military guys. They never want to face the truth in the first place. Then saying all that total bullshit was the only bargaining chip they had. If they said we are done ,what would we do. Simply tell them what the surrender terms would be. If they made the ridiculous claims ,that they would fight until every single Japanese man ,woman and child was dead, then we would have to negotiate. If we were dumb enough to believe it. It was all they could say. that did not make it true, merely expedient. They were asking the USSR to negotiate for them. You do know that don’t you? Or are you skipping that to buttress a terribly flimsy argument? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/292 "2009-11-29T03:09:42Z")
Well, we’re all about fighting ignorance. It wouldn’t do to give up on the ignorance. **gonzomax** ’s entire argument is undermined completely by the existence of [Operation Ketsu-Go](http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/arens/chap4.htm), the plan (which would have been a significant obstacle to Olympic - due to the geography of Kyushu several things were plainly obvious - "The Japanese correctly estimated that the American objective would be to secure Kagoshima Wan for anchorage and port facilities necessary for the buildup.(9) ") which hoped to accomplish the goals I spoke of above. This is not a nation that was ready to surrender, this was a nation that wanted a respite on its own terms, by any means necessary. The bomb forced our terms. They had no choice, there was no defence against it, no way of sacrificing their lives to claim ours. > [@gonzomax](#): > > Again you quote military guys. They never want to face the truth in the first place. Then saying all that total bullshit was the only bargaining chip they had. And yet the civilians believed every word of it. You don’t try to kill yourself otherwise. Look to Okinawa. > [@](#): > > If they said we are done ,what would we do. Simply tell them what the surrender terms would be. We did, at Cairo. And later at Potsdam. > [@](#): > > If they made the ridiculous claims ,that they would fight until every single Japanese man ,woman and child was dead, then we would have to negotiate. If we were dumb enough to believe it. It was all they could say. that did not make it true, merely expedient. Negotiate with a fanatical, criminally aggressive regime bent on domination of East Asia. Are you serious? We couldn’t leave any of them in power. Even the Emperor was stripped of all but a ceremonial role. > [@](#): > > They were asking the USSR to negotiate for them. You do know that don’t you? Or are you skipping that to buttress a terribly flimsy argument? Did you miss the part where I demolished this as a flimsy argument? The negotiations were a joke. The Soviets didn’t want to know and the Japanese were demanding things we’d never agree to. Look above where I quote the writings of the Japanese Foreign Minister on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/293 "2009-11-29T03:12:02Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Again you quote military guys. As much as I hate a “so did you!” rebuttal… so did you! Why does your military guy have more credibility than our military guy? Oh, right… because he agrees with you. > [@](#): > > They never want to face the truth in the first place. How about facing banzai charges? Will you acknowledge those occurred, along with mass suicides, on Okinawa? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/294 "2009-11-29T03:22:43Z")
Well Japan would not have been hard to defeat if they committed mass suicide. They shot their wad. they had nothing left. Threats of fighting to the end in the streets, were fiction. It does not happen in the real world. The Japanese generals had to say they would fight until the end to try and escape with some concessions. What else did you expect them to say? It was past war and into politics then. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/295 "2009-11-29T03:23:41Z")
Also worth reiterating that these “military guys” who disagree with **gonzomax** ’s rosy view were running the freakin’ country at the time. A military junta, no stranger to imposing martial law. Their opinion might count for something. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/296 "2009-11-29T03:28:14Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Well Japan would not have been hard to defeat if they committed mass suicide. > They shot their wad. they had nothing left. Threats of fighting to the end in the streets, were fiction. It does not happen in the real world. > The Japanese generals had to say they would fight until the end to try and escape with some concessions. What else did you expect them to say? It was past war and into politics then. It’s like talking to a brick wall. You see the link above? The many cites quotes previously? They had the will and the means to fight in the streets (like Berlin?). If they committed mass suicide that might drive the death count up, eh? The thing we’re trying to keep low? To the Chinese, Koreans, and all those other in their “East Asian Sphere” who had been under brutal Japanese occupation it might be more than ‘politics’ that you’re allowing the lunatics who began it all to stay in power. That’s what their terms were, that’s what they hoped to accomplish by running the beaches of Kyushu red with blood, just as they had done in Iwo Jima and Okinawa. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/297 "2009-11-29T03:32:56Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Well Japan would not have been hard to defeat if they committed mass suicide. “Mass”, like… a million dead? Two million? The bombs are a bargain in human lives, by comparison. > [@](#): > > Threats of fighting to the end in the streets, were fiction. It does not happen in the real world. Your posts seem… _unconnected_ to the real world. In the real world, there were mass suicides and banzai charges on Okinawa. Will you acknowledge them and explain why this would not occur on the mainland? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/298 "2009-11-29T03:40:46Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Well Japan would not have been hard to defeat if they committed mass suicide. And somehow this would be better than the A-bomb? > [@](#): > > They shot their wad. they had nothing left. Threats of fighting to the end in the streets, were fiction. It does not happen in the real world. Yes it does. I begin to suspect that you are historically impaired. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/299 "2009-11-29T03:57:36Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > They shot their wad. they had nothing left. Again with the maintaining of a repeatedly debunked claim, the assertion against all evidence, the flinging of personal dogma into the teeth of facts. They had 900,000 soldiers on the mainland after withdrawing troops back to Japan. They had 10,000 fighter planes. They had months to fortify the beaches where they knew the allies would land, and they had the knowledge of how Okinawa and Iwo Jima went to better understand how to oppose an allied landing. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/300 "2009-11-29T04:03:35Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Again you quote military guys. They never want to face the truth in the first place. Then saying all that total bullshit was the only bargaining chip they had. If they said we are done ,what would we do. Simply tell them what the surrender terms would be. If they made the ridiculous claims ,that they would fight until every single Japanese man ,woman and child was dead, then we would have to negotiate. If we were dumb enough to believe it. It was all they could say. that did not make it true, merely expedient. They were asking the USSR to negotiate for them. You do know that don’t you? Or are you skipping that to buttress a terribly flimsy argument? Okay, how about a non-military source, like [Japanese Foreign Minister Togo, to his Russian ambassador, Sato, about arranging peace negotiations through Stalin](http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/40.pdf)(July 21, 1945) > [@](#): > > With regard to unconditional surrender we are unable to consent to it under any circumstances whatsoever. Even if the war drags on and it becomes clear that it will take much more bloodshed, the whole country as one man will pit itself against the enemy in accordance with the Imperial Will so long as the enemy demands unconditional surrender. Now, here comes the good part. > [@](#): > > Therefore it is not only impossible for us to request the Russians to lend their good offices in in obtaining a peace without conditions, but it also would be disadvantageous and impossible, from the standpoint of foreign and domestic considerations, to make an immediate declaration of specific terms. In other words, Japan wouldn’t accept “unconditional surrender” but they wouldn’t say what terms they would accept for surrender. After going back and forth with both the Russians and his own government for a week, on July 29 a frustrated Sato asked Togo, “I would particularly like to be informed whether our Imperial Government has a concrete and definite plan for terminating the war.” To which [Togo replied](http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/47.pdf) "it is difficult to decide on concrete peace conditions here at home all at once.” Asking the Soviet Union to act as a go-between was – if not a smokescreen, then at least a horrible display of naivete. The Japanese had no idea what they might agree to for surrender terms, except that it wouldn’t be “unconditional.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803.md?page=16)