# Atomic Bombings of Japan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803 "2009-11-24T17:52:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Mojo\_Pin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/381 "2009-11-30T16:11:29Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > It doesn’t make a difference to the dead, but the Japanese crimes just don’t strike me as unique enough to warrant the comparison. > > The scale of Japanese crimes was perhaps unprecedented, but the crimes themselves weren’t all that different from that of brutal colonizers/conquerors throughout history. Are you aware of Unit 731? I think the things they did surpass what I thought was the limit for human cruelty. And there’s the whole issue of how unrepentant those responsible (and the culture, from what I’ve heard) have remained after the fact. Re: DragonAsh, Thanks for the new perspective. Especially regarding the second bombing, my father also fully believes that the US was anxious to drop the second bomb to test the differences between Plutonium and Uranium bombs. I’m beginning to think that while the US was not clearly in the wrong, they didn’t exactly have a clear conscience either–saving lives wasn’t the only thing on their agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/382 "2009-11-30T16:32:34Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Gonzo is correct in saying that the ‘invasion’ of Japan’s main islands would not have been much of an invasion. Every remaining healthy Japanese boy above the age of 14 was -already in- the army. The ones not already actually fighting were either old, wounded, crippled, women, or children. This is not correct. It would have been the largest scale amphibious invasion in history, dwarfing even Overlord. > [@](#): > > By August 1945, the Japanese armed forces had 2,350,000 officers and men under arms in the homeland, organized into 53 infantry divisions (apart from 5 divisions in Hokkaido and the Northeast Islands) and 25 brigades. Additionally there were two tank divisions and seven brigades, plus four AAA divisions. The 55 divisions were deployed as follows: Honshu-35 infantry, 2 tank; Shikoku-4 infantry, Kyushu-14 infantry. Behind the combat troops were 2,250,000 Army workers, 1,300,000 Navy workers, 250,000 Special Garrison Force personnel, and a National Volunteer Force of militia officially put at 28 million. > **[OLYMPIC VS KETSU-GO](http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/war.term/olympic.html)** > [@](#): > > Japan’s military was in shambles. Its airforce was no longer a real threat. As far back as 1942 Japan’s airforce was unable to train enough cadets to replace those lost (at the Battle of Midway Japan lost as many aircrewmen in a single day as their pre-war training program had produced in a year). It sure was. But this doesn’t mean that the Airforce was completely destroyed, or no longer a threat. The Japanese planned to recall planes from Korea and China to aid in the defence of the homeland; > [@](#): > > The Air General Army would direct operations covering Kyushu, from headquarters near Osaka; the Navy, from the Nara area. In all, then, against the expected invaders, there would be over 10,000 last-stand planes (75% of them special attack aircraft hastily converted from trainers). Two-thirds of the force would be committed to defend Kyushu at the outset, one-third to cover the Kanto district. Furthermore, there were a number of improvised airfields that could have been used in Kyushu to boost the effectiveness of the airforce. > [@](#): > > Japan had no more resources with which to make weapons, bullets, etc. My grandmother-in-law recalls the government confiscating pots and pans, apparently so the metal could be melted down. This is very true. It would have been a one-sided battle once the Americans engaged the militia forces, but a battle nevertheless. > [@](#): > > A grandfather-in-law was one of only three people to survive from his company following a battle in the Philippines. He lived in constant shame at being one of the survivors. Up until his death a few years ago he refused to look at the TV if the Emperor or any member of the royal family was on it. The rest of the family looked upon his as a bit kooky, but _everyone says that’s how everyone was back then_. Yes, exactly. This is also supported by the experience on Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Imagine if, even if crude weapons and a shortage of ammunition (which would have likely caused Banzai charges with bayonets) the forces stationed in the Home Islands all fought to the death. > [@](#): > > So I have no doubt believing that Japan would have indeed fought to the very end. Japan’s mindset is such that they find it much easier to take their own life than Westerners. Even today - although it is never spoken out loud - there is still an unspoken agreement among Japanese that someone that committed suicide to atone for a hideous deed has managed to recover a bit of respect and dignity. Yes, exactly the problem with the invasion of the Home Islands. Japan hadn’t been invaded in millennia, unconditional surrender in a conventional war, unthinkable. > [@](#): > > Anyway, back on topic: the question I come down to is, just how much resistance would a bunch of women, children, and old men, armed with nothing more than bamboo spears and awls, actually put up? The idea that the US would have faced massive causalties in an invasion is just flat-out silly - the US military would have steamrolled the island; I suspect their guns would give a bit of a reach advantage compared to that guy holding the shovel. Nobody is saying that the Allies wouldn’t have been victorious in Operation Downfall. What we’re saying is that the timescale of victory and likely casualty estimates (especially among civilians - again look to Okinawa. How many citizens of Kyushu would kill themselves like their cousins in Okinawa?) were much greater than the casualties caused by the bomb. > [@](#): > > Might have taken a while, no doubt, And there would have been some casualties - but this wasn’t going to be a Normandy invasion. Overall, any actual invasion would have been a massive mop-up operation indeed, and both of my grandfather-in-laws not only say this, they say everyone at the time knew it for fact. In fact, they fully expected it, and were preparing for what they assumed was inevitable death defending Japan. No, it would have been much worse than Overlord. > [@](#): > > Formation of new ground divisions proceeded apace, under the goad of imminent invasion, while elite divisions and the last armor in the Kwantung Army were recalled from Manchuria. > > The fixed defenses on Kyushu were expected to be formidable. Not only were the landing areas themselves well defended but the island’s terrain was mountainous and deeply scarred by numerous narrow and steep stream beds. Thus it was the type of terrain which particularly lent itself to the defensive tactics at which the Japanese had proven themselves so adept. > … > The odds against the defenders were far from impossible. This time, for example, shipping across immense distances would be the problem of the Americans, not the Japanese. Defending planes could operate from improvised airstrips and underground installations. The main strength of the Japanese Army remained intact. All material and psychological resources could be combined to defend hearth and home, to annihilate the invaders on soil that was known and loved. The motto would truly be, “Victory or Death!”-and the spirit would be that of the special attack corps. > [@](#): > > Three days between Hiroshima and Nagasaki simply wasn’t enough time for Japan to do anything. Heck, after three days \*even people in Hiroshima \*weren’t fully aware of what had happened; what makes you think people in Tokyo knew? It’s not like US intelligence at the time was completely flawless, and it was still far, far better than Japan’s was. One has to wonder if, for example, five or six days had elapsed instead of three. And yet after Nagasaki they telegrammed the Allies agreeing to Potsdam terms plus Emperor the morning after. Togo’s notes confirm that the military was well aware of what had happened at Hiroshima and chose to hold out for conditional terms anyway. > [@](#): > > I believe 100% (but have no proof) that the second bomb was 90% because the military wanted to test out another new bomb. Fat Man, the bomb detonated over Nagasaki, was very similar in form and function to The Gadget tested at Trinity. Testing it again seems redundant, the US already knew its capabilities. > [@](#): > > I also believe (but of have no proof) that there is a 90% chance that the US would NOT have dropped an atomic bomb on Germany, if the war had been going on. The Allies had agreed on a ‘Germany first’ creed, that the European theatre would, for a variety of valid reasons, take priority. I can’t cite it online, but Stephen Ambrose wrote an interesting counterfactual piece titled “If D-Day Failed: Atomic Alternatives in Europe.”. If Germany had held out in the same manner as Japan I could well imagine mushroom clouds over the central German plane. > [@](#): > > So - in hindsight? The bomb was probably the lesser evil of other alternatives. I honestly believe that Japan as a country may well not exist today if the allies had actually invaded. A Japanese politician had to resign not too long ago for admitting what everyone actually thinks - the Japan of today is far better off than it would have been if it had been invaded (or, for that matter, if it had even won the war). > > The worrisome thing to me is that the same factors that led to Japan being a simplistic, easily manipulated culture/population haven’t really changed all that much in the last 60 years… Precisely; nobody relished using the bomb, but it was either that or pick Japan’s carcass apart bit by bit in a bloody invasion. The Japanese were finished, sure enough nobody in the Allied command structure doubted victory (and many in the Japanese command structure felt defeat was imminent - although those in power firmly believed that they could inflict so many casualties on invading forces that peace on Japanese terms could be forced), but the fact is the Japanese still did not surrender. The Imperial Rescript on Surrender, read by the Emperor to announce the end, just about sums it up: > [@](#): > > Despite the best that has been done by everyone…the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan’s advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest. **Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is indeed incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should We continue to fight, it would not only result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation** , but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization. Such being the case, **how are We to save the millions of Our subjects** ; or to atone Ourselves before the hallowed spirits of Our Imperial Ancestors? **This is the reason why We have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the Joint Declaration of the Powers.** > **[HyperWar: Japan Surrenders](http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/PTO/Dip/Crane.html)** ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/383 "2009-11-30T16:47:52Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > The worrisome thing to me is that the same factors that led to Japan being a simplistic, easily manipulated culture/population haven’t really changed all that much in the last 60 years… Well, cultural isolation and an attitude toward racial purity will do that. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/384 "2009-11-30T17:11:50Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > What, you’ve never heard of [Unit 731](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731)? > > Be sure to read the “Activities” section. I’m very familiar with Unit 731, thanks. While terrible, I don’t think it’s enough to make Japan the equal of Nazi Germany. But if you want to say Ishii was as evil as Mengele, I won’t object. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/385 "2009-11-30T17:15:32Z")
What is this, an evil contest? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/386 "2009-11-30T17:31:38Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > What, you’ve never heard of [Unit 731](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731)? > > Be sure to read the “Activities” section. The Japanese were the equivalent of the Nazis in atrocities. Perhaps even worse. If we lost to Japan we would have to defend American atrocities. War is an ugly shameful business. History is written by the winners. Glory and fighting by rules is a thing for movies. Americans would have been prosecuted for war crimes if we lost. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/387 "2009-11-30T17:55:19Z")
Mr. Kobayashi, I don’t think we’re necessarily at odds on this subject. My point is that the situation on the mainland was far, far worse than people realize. Japan may have still had numbers, but what were they going to fight with? What were they eating? From the very link you posted: > [@](#): > > Domei correspondent Masuo Kato, for example, was already convinced that no successful Japanese resistance was any longer possible, that perhaps the country was continuing to fight only from habit and because it did not know how to stop. Kato judged that by the summer of 1945 Japan’s war had been irrevocably lost, and that the leaders-“floundering in dissension and indecision”-knew it all too well, although the public could not. Terrorized and ignorant, the people might “feel in their skin” that all was not well, but they were obliged to cling desperately to a world of myths, till the end. > > These subjective conjectures are supported by classified surveys conducted by the Supreme War Direction Council since the spring of 1945, when the American air offensive was reaching a crescendo. The military and civilian analysts reported evidence of declining Japanese civil morale, marketing and corruption, growing distrust of the leadership, and criticism of the military and government. Although inherently patriotic, the public revealed egotism, lack of spirit, despair and resignation, restlessness, peace-mongering, and even revolutionary tendencies. The president of the Privy Council admitted at an Imperial Conference that public morale had obviously been lowered, that public willingness to glorify the best traditions of the ancestors might suffer “under certain circumstances.” > > The state of the economy and of the armed forces was deteriorating. **Navy units lacked fuel to support more than two sorties by the few remaining destroyers** , even in homeland waters; and the last two Japanese battleships had had to be moored in Kure, with skeleton crews. A government estimate judged that because of the critical fuel shortage, ships and small craft could be used only in the harbor AA defense role. > > In the Japanese Army and Navy air corps, **routine flight training was abandoned** , and emphasis was assigned to \*\*primary training \*\*in the piloting (essentially the takeoff and steering) of **suicide planes**. Many such pilots were given only 20 to 90 hours of training. Aviation fuel reserves were dwindling to the point where a final sortie by all available planes could not even have been mounted. Army pilots said that oil had become more precious than blood. **Wood turpentine and charcoal were used as fuel** , and imaginative government chemists worked on many a feckless project designed to create ersatz petrol. One example was the much publicized effort to extract oil from the roots of the pine tree. > > By July 1945, **production of civilian goods was below the level of subsistence**. Munitions output was less than half the wartime peak-a level they could not be expected to support sustained defensive operations against an invasion. The vital railway net was overburdened, defenseless, and deteriorating. Production and raw-material shortages were felt in all sectors of the economy-oil, transport, aircraft, coal, steel. The manufacturers of suicide boats, for example, could provide only 20 to 40% of the total force projected for the end of September 1945. Quality control was also suffering. By the end of 1944, **70% of the output of new planes broke down before ever entering combat**. To conserve air strength, the Japanese High Command issued instructions in July 1945 that direct combat with enemy task force sweeps and bombardments was to be avoided. Little Japanese resistance was being put up against American carrier planes, bombers, and warships that were now hammering at the homeland. Serious (but ineffective) thought was given to the dispatch of airborne raiding teams against B-29 bases in the Marianas, or surprise attacks by submarine launched planes. Planes were actually readied at Misawa air base to fly teams out, but the concentration was destroyed by US carrier planes on 14 July 1945. > > The Japanese leaders might be publicly calling for a struggle of flesh against iron, of spirit against materiel, in the Japanese tradition (which, after all, despised surrender). And the Diet might be passing a “volunteer military service” law for boys of 15 and men of 60, for girls of 17 and women of 40. But **even the highest-ranking government were horrified at the Army’s primitive notions for militia defense.** In July 1945, Premier Suzuki and his associates were invited to visit an amazing display of weapons to be issued the Japanese citizenry: **Single-shot, muzzle-loading muskets; longbows and arrows (effective range 30-40 meters, hit probability 50%, said the placards); bamboo spears; pitchforks**. The ordinarily phlegmatic old prime minister mumbled to his secretary, “This is awful!” The secretary agreed, in fury and despair. There was a limit to deceiving the people, he felt; this was hardly a sane way of fighting in the 20th Century. Something must be done to achieve peace… > > In those last months of the war, work was rushed on the still-unsatisfactory coastal defenses. Operational preparations in Kyushu and Shikoku were more advanced than in the Kanto district. Units at the former places were expected to be fully outfitted by around October 1945; those in the Kanto area by next spring. Beach defenses at main coastal sectors in Kyushu, Shikoku, and the Kanto reached 60 to 80C% of the goals by August. The imperativeness of construction overrode considerations of training. Provision supply lagged all over. Steel and concrete were in particularly short supply. **Japanese inspectors described much of the fortifications as primitive and toy-like, hand-made and crude**. Sorry for the long quote, but I think this is important for people to realize: any invasion of Japan would have resulted in far, far fewer US military deaths than the estimates that were being thrown around at the time. It most certainly would have resulted in far, far more Japanese deaths, of course - which is why in the grand scheme of things the a-bombs were probably the lesser of two evils. As I stated before, I do not think Japan would exist as an independent nation today if the Allies had invaded. The quote above that speaks volumes to me is ‘they didn’t know how to stop fighting’. That, to me, is the Japan I still know very well in a nutshell. When things start to go to hell in a hen basket, the Japanese are simply very, very bad at solving problems/crisis management. I’ve seen it today, at Japanese banks which are among the largest financial institutions in the world, and I have every expectation that this is exactly what was happening during the war: overall lines of communication break down when things go bad; Japan’s subordinates simply stop communicating, preferring silence over having to report bad news. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/388 "2009-11-30T18:04:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Damuri Ajashi** : > The Japanese are not particularly repentant over their actions during the war > [@villa](#): > > What is “understatement of the century,” Alex? Just because I get tired of hearing this: > **[List of war apology statements issued by Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan)** > > This is a list of war apology statements issued by Japan regarding war crimes committed by the Empire of Japan during World War II. The statements were made at and after the end of World War II in Asia, from the 1950s to present day. Controversies remain to this day with some about the nature of the war crimes of the past and the appropriate person to make the apology. > At the end of the Pacific Theater of World War II, the Imperial Japanese government accepted the terms of the Potsdam Declar... ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/389 "2009-11-30T18:10:26Z")
[QUOTE=DragonAsh] Sorry for the long quote, but I think this is important for people to realize: any invasion of Japan would have resulted in far, far fewer US military deaths than the estimates that were being thrown around at the time. [/QUOTE] What do you base this on? From what I’ve seen, the Japanese had very successfully hidden massive coastal defenses, and also accurately predicted where the allies were going to initially land. Everything I’ve read seems to indicate that even the high end causality estimates may have been conservative. The landings alone would have been brutal. The Japanese had prepared VERY well, and the civilian population was ready to get thrown into the fire, along with everything left of their military…which wasn’t insubstantial. I think you are seriously underestimating how vicious and desperate the Japanese would have been when the home island was invaded. > [@](#): > > It most certainly would have resulted in far, far more Japanese deaths, of course - which is why in the grand scheme of things the a-bombs were probably the lesser of two evils. As I stated before, I do not think Japan would exist as an independent nation today if the Allies had invaded. Well, it might have been divided up, sort of like Germany. The Soviets were already in the act of grabbing off pieces, and in any full on invasion they would have been there. I guess Japan might have been divided into an East Japan and a West Japan, with, perhaps, a divided rule Tokyo (well, what was left of it). > [@](#): > > The quote above that speaks volumes to me is ‘they didn’t know how to stop fighting’. That, to me, is the Japan I still know very well in a nutshell. When things start to go to hell in a hen basket, the Japanese are simply very, very bad at solving problems/crisis management. I’ve seen it today, at Japanese banks which are among the largest financial institutions in the world, and I have every expectation that this is exactly what was happening during the war: overall lines of communication break down when things go bad; Japan’s subordinates simply stop communicating, preferring silence over having to report bad news. I think the Japanese knew how to stop fighting. The problem is that they underestimated their opponents at a fundamental level…and they never were able to grasp how their initial calculations were flawed. To the end they felt that if only they could inflict sufficient casualties on the allies (especially the American’s), they could get peace terms that would leave their government intact, with the possibility of expansion again in the future. Their entire defense strategy was designed around killing the maximum number of allied troops to achieve this end. Their kamikaze strategy was a classic example of this, as was their almost fanatic defense of each and every island we took back. It was all crafted to instill in the allied leadership (and the folks back home) a sense that Japan would just be too costly to take, and that we should sue for terms rather than pay those kinds of prices. The problem was, the US was fully prepared, at that time, to pay whatever price it took. And the Soviets were ALWAYS ready to throw away men like grains of rice. Their entire strategy was built on foundations of sand, because they just couldn’t understand the motives of either the allied leadership OR of the people back home. -XT ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/390 "2009-11-30T18:15:03Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Just because I get tired of hearing this: > > [List of war apology statements issued by Japan - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan) Just because I get tired of hearing this: UN Report 1998: > [@](#): > > “Until the early 1990s, the Japanese government denied the extent of its involvement in the creation of comfort stations and the abuses committed against women (comfort women). The Japanese government has made various apologies since the early 1990s. One very notable apology was made by Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama in July 1995 in which he specifically mentions the Japanese military’s involvement in crimes against comfort women. **Though it has seemingly apologized repeatedly for these offenses, the Japanese government denies legal liability for the creation and maintenance of the system of “comfort stations” and comfort women used during World War II.** The Japanese government has set up an Asia Women’s Fund which conveys Japan’s apologies for crimes committed against women during World War II through direct donations from the Japanese public. **Despite this, according to the Japanese government, individual comfort women don’t deserve compensation.** ” (Emphasis added). ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/391 "2009-11-30T18:15:56Z")
Given what happened on Okinawa, and the sheer numbers involved I don’t think that the US casualties would have been all that light. There were still hundreds of thousands of troops even without factoring the poorly-equipped militia. Speaking of Okinawa, it might even have been a worse situation in terms of the ‘fight to the death’ mentality. > [@](#): > > By one count, there were about 107,000 Japanese combatants killed and 7,400 captured. Some of the soldiers committed seppuku or simply blew themselves up with hand grenades. In addition, about 20,000 were sealed in their caves alive.[17] > > This was also the first battle in the war in which surrendering Japanese were made into POWs by the thousands. Many of the Japanese prisoners were native Okinawans who had been impressed into the Army shortly before the battle and were less imbued with the Japanese Army’s no-surrender doctrine.[18] From the wiki. On the mainland this factor is eliminated. Add in the terrain and you get, like Normandy, close quarters infantry combat leading to high casualties on both sides. This is also why we needed to end the war as soon as possible, it was not more humane to keep up the blockade and bombardment leading to these harsh civilian conditions. From the statement of the Emperor, and what you’ve said, and all the previous cited sources, it seems that the bomb gave them a ‘way out’, made it obvious to all but the most hardline that this was the time to stop. In a conventional war, who knows when this time would come? Probably after the deaths of hundreds of thousands of soldiers and civilians in Operation Downfall. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/392 "2009-11-30T18:34:11Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Just because I get tired of hearing this: > > UN Report 1998: > > (Emphasis added). But the emphasized part of your text is accurate, AFAIK. The Japanese don’t have any legal liability to compensate the comfort women because the issue of war reparations was settled in a 1965 bilateral treaty between Japan and South Korea under which the South Korean government accepted legal responsibility for compensation to individuals. Whether the Japanese still have the moral responsibility to do something is another question, of course. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/393 "2009-11-30T18:54:32Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Just because I get tired of hearing this: > > UN Report 1998: > “Until the early 1990s, the Japanese government denied the extent of its involvement in the creation of comfort stations and the abuses committed against women (comfort women). The Japanese government has made various apologies since the early 1990s. One very notable apology was made by Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama in July 1995 in which he specifically mentions the Japanese military’s involvement in crimes against comfort women. Though it has seemingly apologized repeatedly for these offenses, the Japanese government denies legal liability for the creation and maintenance of the system of “comfort stations” and comfort women used during World War II. The Japanese government has set up an Asia Women’s Fund which conveys Japan’s apologies for crimes committed against women during World War II through direct donations from the Japanese public. Despite this, according to the Japanese government, individual comfort women don’t deserve compensation.” a) Japan was hardly the first or last country to utilize military-run brothels. Germany and France did the same during the First and Second World Wars, for example. I also recall reading that the US army itself apparently used brothels set up by the Japanese government during the Occupation. b) The whole issue is easy emotional fodder for politicians outside the country to bash Japan around - but gosh, Japan isn’t really alone on this issue. Should the US government compensate Native Americans? It was only recently that the Senate urged President Obama to officially ‘apologize’ to Native Americans - and lawmakers were careful not to include anything resembling or opening themselves up to compensation claims. Apparently, according to the US government, individual Native Americans don’t deserve compensation. It took Australia decades to apologize to the indigenous Aboriginal population for past abuses - but no compensation. According to the Australian government, individual Aborigines don’t deserve compensation. c) In any event - what in heck’s name does the comfort women issue have to do with this? Japan has issued apologies for the war and for the comfort women issue. I’m not sure what you’re arguing here. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/394 "2009-11-30T18:58:13Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > c) In any event - what in heck’s name does the comfort women issue have to do with this? Japan has issued apologies for the war and for the comfort women issue. I’m not sure what you’re arguing here. It’s an example of how Japan’s apologies have been self serving and meaningless. Especially in light of such things as the revisionism in official text books. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/395 "2009-11-30T19:09:33Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > What do you base this on? From what I’ve seen, the Japanese had very successfully hidden massive coastal defenses, and also accurately predicted where the allies were going to initially land. Everything I’ve read seems to indicate that even the high end causality estimates may have been conservative. The landings alone would have been brutal. The Japanese had prepared VERY well, and the civilian population was ready to get thrown into the fire, along with everything left of their military…which wasn’t insubstantial. I think you are seriously underestimating how vicious and desperate the Japanese would have been when the home island was invaded. Fortunately, by July we knew that the Japanese had correctly anticipated our strategy and that they had organized a much greater defense than we had thought possible. With that in mind, it’s virtually unthinkable to me that we would have just gone ahead with the invasion as planned even if the atomic bombs hadn’t come along. We would have altered the invasion plans or pursued a different strategy to end the war. > [@](#): > > Well, it might have been divided up, sort of like Germany. The Soviets were already in the act of grabbing off pieces, and in any full on invasion they would have been there. I guess Japan might have been divided into an East Japan and a West Japan, with, perhaps, a divided rule Tokyo (well, what was left of it). I don’t think it would ever have been that bad. IIRC, the Soviets only planned on getting most of Hokkaido, the Kuriles, and Sakhalin. I think Truman would have strongly resisted giving them anything more (unless there were actually Soviet boots on the ground in Honshu, of course.) > [@](#): > > I think the Japanese knew how to stop fighting. The problem is that they underestimated their opponents at a fundamental level…and they never were able to grasp how their initial calculations were flawed. To the end they felt that if only they could inflict sufficient casualties on the allies (especially the American’s), they could get peace terms that would leave their government intact, with the possibility of expansion again in the future. Their entire defense strategy was designed around killing the maximum number of allied troops to achieve this end. Their kamikaze strategy was a classic example of this, as was their almost fanatic defense of each and every island we took back. It was all crafted to instill in the allied leadership (and the folks back home) a sense that Japan would just be too costly to take, and that we should sue for terms rather than pay those kinds of prices. > > The problem was, the US was fully prepared, at that time, to pay whatever price it took. And the Soviets were ALWAYS ready to throw away men like grains of rice. Their entire strategy was built on foundations of sand, because they just couldn’t understand the motives of either the allied leadership OR of the people back home. I think it’s similar to the thought process that got them into the war in the first place… that it’s better to try and lose than just concede. The military leadership felt that any surrender terms that came after the invasion couldn’t be any worse than the unconditional surrender that was already being demanded. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/396 "2009-11-30T19:11:17Z")
[http://www.springerlink.com/content/x8k1r31367450677/](http://www.springerlink.com/content/x8k1r31367450677/) This is what the Japanese have to answer for. Wonder what the Japanese would have had on us if they won? War turns everybody into animals. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/397 "2009-11-30T19:13:31Z")
As I have always read it the women in the WW1 German and French war brothels were not coerced into the job beyond the need for some kind of employment. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/398 "2009-11-30T19:21:27Z")
I’m far from a Japanese apologist - but for cryin’ out loud, stop moving the goal posts. The original post I responded to said, in effect, ‘Japan has not apologized for the war’. I noted that, in fact, Japan had done so, repeatedly. Have you been in a Japanese class room? I have, both high school and university. In Japanese. As a regular student. Arguing about a subject that, I suspect, you have little first-hand experience, means your knowledge is based on newspaper reports, which are based on the claims of Asian nations (read: China, South Korea), that have their own domestic agenda in stirring up anti-Japanese sentiment. It is also somewhat hypocritical of those countries to object to Japan’s textbook methods, since neither China nor South Korea allow private publishing companies to publish textbooks (i.e., the government approves of a single history textbook to be used in all schools). Secondly - the fact that the textbook issue became a controversy at all was only because one of Japan’s major newspaper dailies (the Asahi, IIRC) reported it - i.e., the newspaper thought it was something that didn’t sound right, and needed to be reported. Hardly sounds like a nationwide conspiracy to cover up Japan’s actions in the war. I personally hate the ‘well, they did this but we did that’ kind of debating, but if you’re going to insist on holding Japan to a specific standard, make sure you’re at least consistent. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/399 "2009-11-30T19:24:56Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > As I have always read it the women in the WW1 German and French war brothels were not coerced into the job beyond the need for some kind of employment. Oh, so it was actually an job creation initative, was it? Riiiight. I’m sure the Polish women were quite happy to prostitute themselves for the occupying Germany army if it meant work. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803/400 "2009-11-30T19:33:51Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I’m far from a Japanese apologist - but for cryin’ out loud, stop moving the goal posts. The original post I responded to said, in effect, ‘Japan has not apologized for the war’. I noted that, in fact, Japan had done so, repeatedly. Actually, no it didn’t. So there is no moving the goal posts. The post you responded to said Japan was not repentant. To which I added that was an understatement. To which you replied that they have made all these spiffy apologies. Official apologies not backed up by actions do not repentance make. Official apologies backed up by the veneration of war criminals makes any presumption fo rependance a little doubtful to me. And you are right, much of the information does come from those with an axe to grind against Japan. It’s hard to stay neutral when your country was occupied and brutalized for years, or when you were a guest of the Japanese as a POW, only to be essentially told by the Japanese to stop whining. I’d prefer to take the word of those harmed over whether an apology is adequate or not than to allow you to make that determination for me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-bombings-of-japan/518803.md?page=21)