Atomic Bombings of Japan

[Mr.Kobayashi]

@Dissonance

Once again your commanding knowledge of history is astounding. Nothing but mopping up.

And that’s without the Bushido code of death before surrender;

The Japanese Army still had 2.35 million men under arms inside Japan, not having suffered the massive devastation that had been inflicted on the Japanese Air Force and Navy. In fact, the Japanese sneered at their erstwhile Axis ally for surrendering when only some 2.5 million Russians had fought their way through Berlin. The Germans lacked the “Bushido” tradition, commented the Japanese press. Now, the imperial armed forces pleaded for the chance to "find life in death … … If we are prepared to sacrifice 20,000,000 Japanese lives in a special attack [kamikaze] effort, victory shall be ours!"58

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Pearlman/pearlman.asp

[Kent_Clark]

@gonzomax

Not the same at all. Once we actually got to Germany it was like Japan would have been ,a mop up operation.

Not exactly. The Japanese had more than 500,000 troops on Kyushuwaiting for the U.S. invasion.

[gonzomax]

@Mr.Kobayashi

And that’s without the Bushido code of death before surrender;
http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Pearlman/pearlman.asp

Words. I understand the need a lot of people have to justify dropping the bomb.
We have no such code here, yet the American soldiers have stood up to and won the day against all these so called codes and super soldiers. Why did it not matter during the battles? The Nazi war machine, the Japanese Bushido code, where were they when we took it all the way through Europe and then to Japan?

[Bryan_Ekers]

Now you’re just being silly.

[Gary_Baldy]

@gonzomax

Not the same at all. Once we actually got to Germany it was like Japan would have been ,a mop up operation.

Didn’t the Berlin Offensive consist of 350,000 Soviet casualties and 900,000 Nazi casualties? That doesn’t include the other battles in the German homeland with the Allies. This is what you consider mopping up.

[Mr.Kobayashi]

@gonzomax

Words. I understand the need a lot of people have to justify dropping the bomb.
We have no such code here, yet the American soldiers have stood up to and won the day against all these so called codes and super soldiers. Why did it not matter during the battles? The Nazi war machine, the Japanese Bushido code, where were they when we took it all the way through Europe and then to Japan?

This is bordering on the disingenuous, now. There have been numerous cited cases where it’s made clear that the Wehrmacht and the Imperial Japanese Army were two very different beasts - including from a veteran of Okinawa, who made it clear in no uncertain terms that his fellow Marines did not relish a fight on the mainland, for it would almost certainly mean death, given the fierce fighting they had experienced on Okinawa (Iwo Jima is another good case study of Japanese tactics, or rather how their ideology influenced it).

The bomb was not pleasant, the bomb killed civilians (as did many conventional bombing runs in previous months, like the firebombing of Toyko - another point you’ve not addressed). But the alternatives were even more unpleasant, and would have resulted in even more civilian casualties. This was not some fantasy land whereby war was a matter of simply asking the enemy nicely if they’d maybe like to give up at some point, it was a total war with a fanatical enemy bent on fighting to the death.

The bomb gave them (well, most of them - even after Nagasaki there were nutcases who did not want to surrender. How would you ‘negotiate’ with this mentality?) a way out, a way to save face, a way to preserve the ‘Yamato-damashii’ in defeat.

[Magiver]

@gonzomax

Words. I understand the need a lot of people have to justify dropping the bomb.
We have no such code here, yet the American soldiers have stood up to and won the day against all these so called codes and super soldiers. Why did it not matter during the battles? The Nazi war machine, the Japanese Bushido code, where were they when we took it all the way through Europe and then to Japan?

The battle of Iwa Jima was to the death. Very few soldiers surrendered (216 of 18,000 Japanese soldiers).

Had we taken your approach, each of Japan’s islands would have been subjected to an uncontested barrage of 16" guns, carpet bombing and marine assaults. Fighting would be house to house until everything was destroyed because civilians would have been pressed into service. The concept of civilians would have been lost.

So to answer your question, where were the Japanese super soldiers when we “took it all the way”? They died and took many civilians with them.

[gonzomax]

@Magiver

The battle of Iwa Jima was to the death. Very few soldiers surrendered (216 of 18,000 Japanese soldiers).

Had we taken your approach, each of Japan’s islands would have been subjected to an uncontested barrage of 16" guns, carpet bombing and marine assaults. Fighting would be house to house until everything was destroyed because civilians would have been pressed into service. The concept of civilians would have been lost.

So to answer your question, where were the Japanese super soldiers when we “took it all the way”? They died and took many civilians with them.

The civilians were women ,children and men too old to be conscripted.

[Dissonance]

@Bryan_Ekers

Now you’re just being silly.

Just now?

[Gary_Baldy]

@gonzomax

The civilians were women ,children and men too old to be conscripted.

Wrong again. If I remember correctly, the volunteer military service law at the end of the war mandated conscription for all Japanese males between the ages of 15 and 60 and all females between the ages of 17 to 40. Additionally, school children were being taught to use bamboo staves and spears to fight the coming American invasion. ( A picture is included here. ) Also children were being taught to be suicide bombers by strapping them with bombs.

The link above also contains a decent argument for dropping the atomic bombs on Japan.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@gonzomax

The civilians were women ,children and men too old to be conscripted.

They weren’t too helpless to leap off of cliffs rather than be captured, just like their Okinawan cousins.

[Magiver]

@gonzomax

The civilians were women ,children and men too old to be conscripted.

And yet the women, children and elderly died by the thousands on Iwa Jima.

When you use school girls to make weapons then the building they are in becomes a target. When soldiers use a house to fire from it becomes a target.
Japan used everybody capable of drawing breath to advance the war and a homeland invasion would have devastated the civilian population.

[Gary_Baldy]

@Magiver

And yet the women, children and elderly died by the thousands on Iwa Jima.

Iwo Jima had no civilians. I believe you are thinking of Okinawa.

[Tristan]

@gonzomax

The civilians were women ,children and men too old to be conscripted.

You show a complete and total lack of understanding of the Japanese mindset of the day.

The Imperial government had spent a very long time building up the idea of Bushido, and using the historical lessons of Ancient Japan. You know, a society that deemed that certain dishonors, the only option was to take your own life? Men, women and children being taught (and expected to use) the ritualistic suicide?

That attitude got warped a bit as things went on, and it was no longer a ritualistic suicide in order to cleanse the honor of your family. By the end of WW2, it was a “death by any means but at the hands of the barbaric invaders, and take some with you if you can” mindset.

Britain had pressed old men, 60 years old and older, into the Home Guard. If Sealion had happened, those old men with their antique rifles would have been going up against the best troops the Germans could throw into the fight. they would have been slaughtered. But they would have taken a German or two with them, in theory.

And they would have been seen as heroic figures to the British.

The Japanese would be doing the exact same thing, but also including all women, and young men down to the age of 15.

Those that were unable to fight would have killed themselves. some would have charged US positions, hoping to take out an invader. Old men, women, children… this is what the US forces would have been facing.

If you can’t grasp that fact, regardless of what the argument is, maybe you should admit that and move on.

[Mr.Kobayashi]

@gonzomax

The civilians were women ,children and men too old to be conscripted.

The women were encouraged to kill themselves:

Clutching a hand grenade issued by the Japanese Imperial Army and driven by tales of what U.S. soldiers would do with a pretty young woman, Sumie Oshiro recalled,she fled into the forests of Okinawa during the World War II battle known here as the “typhoon of steel.”

“At one place, we sat together and hit the grenade on the ground, but it did not explode,” she said last week of her flight with friends after Japanese soldiers told them to kill themselves rather than be taken captive.

“We tried to kill ourselves many times, trying to explode the grenade we were given from the Japanese Army,” she said.

The three-month battle for Okinawa took more than 200,000 lives - 12,520 Americans, 94,136 Japanese soldiers and 94,000 Okinawan civilians, about one-quarter of the prewar population.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/20/world/asia/20iht-oki.html

These weren’t “just words” we’re using to justify our love for vaporising helpless…worms. The Japanese even sent their most powerful battleship, the Yamato, on a deliberate suicide mission.

The infantry were equally suicidal;

The Japanese used what they called Banzai attacks. That meant they got their troops worked up into a frenzy where they screamed, fired their weapons, and charged the enemy with no concern for themselves.

Using whatever they had — swords, rifles, spears and clubs — they charged! And theoretically, continued charging until they died (for their Emperor).

A banzai attack came that night. I remember it very clearly — as if it were yesterday.

COLUMN: Retired general recalls life's most stressful event — combat

[Mr.Miskatonic]

@gonzomax

Not the same at all. Once we actually got to Germany it was like Japan would have been ,a mop up operation.

You have a funny definition of ‘mop-up’. Given the casualty levels around Berlin. Even so:

Does this read like a ‘mop-up’ operation?!

The Japanese defense relied heavily on kamikaze planes. In addition to fighters and bombers, they reassigned almost all of their trainers for the mission, trying to make up in quantity what they lacked in quality. Their army and navy had more than 10,000 aircraft ready for use in July (and would have had somewhat more by October) and were planning to use almost all that could reach the invasion fleets. Ugaki also oversaw building of hundreds of small suicide boats that would also be used to attack any Allied ships that came near the shores of Kyūshū.[citation needed]

Fewer than 2,000 kamikaze planes launched attacks during the Battle of Okinawa, achieving approximately one hit per nine attacks. At Kyūshū, given the more favorable circumstances (such as terrain that reduced the U.S’s radar advantage), they hoped to get one for six by overwhelming the U.S. defenses with large numbers of kamikaze attacks in a period of hours. The Japanese estimated that the planes would sink more than 400 ships; since they were training the pilots to target transports rather than carriers and destroyers, the casualties would be disproportionately greater than at Okinawa.

and

In addition, the Japanese had organized the Patriotic Citizens Fighting Corps—which included all healthy men aged 15–60 and women 17–40—to perform combat support, and ultimately combat jobs. Weapons, training, and uniforms were generally lacking: some men were armed with nothing better than muzzle-loading muskets, longbows, or bamboo spears; nevertheless, they were expected to make do with what they had. One mobilized high school girl, Yukiko Kasai, found herself issued an awl and told, "Even killing one American soldier will do. … You must aim for the abdomen

“Mop-up” indeed. :rolleyes:

[Bryan_Ekers]

I have my doubts any of this will matter to gonzomax, but I know I’m learning some things.

And I had a great-uncle who was in the U.S. Marines during the war. We only discussed it once (I think it was the 40th anniversary of V-J day or something) and he also described some of the ideas expressed here - that an invasion would have been disastrous for both sides and Japanese women had been convinced the Americans would rape and slaughter them all.

[Mr.Kobayashi]

Something I wasn’t aware of, either - in October 1945 a typhoon devastated the island of Okinawa;

On 9 October, when the storm passed over the island, winds of 80 knots (92 miles per hour) and 30-35 foot waves battered the ships and craft in the bay and tore into the quonset huts and buildings ashore. A total of 12 ships and craft were sunk, 222 grounded, and 32 severely damaged. [for listing of vessels] Personnel casualties were 36 killed, 47 missing, and 100 seriously injured. Almost all the food, medical supplies and other stores were destroyed, over 80% of all housing and buildings knocked down, and all the military installations on the island were temporarily out of action. Over 60 planes were damaged as well, though most were repairable

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq102-6.htm

Imagine if Japan hadn’t surrendered when it did - this epicentre of the storm would have been the staging area for the invasion.

There were also a number of tropical storms throughout November, when Operation Olympic was scheduled to be launched: 1945 Pacific typhoon season - Wikipedia

Anyone familiar with the preparations for D-Day will know the crucial importance weather has on amphibious invasions (D-Day itself was delayed due to choppy seas). This in turn would have postponed Operation Coronet - the war could have dragged out even longer. With more civilians dying in bombing raids and through starvation, and a Soviet presence.

[cckerberos]

Let’s not over exaggerate the “Bushido mindset”. There was a lot of peer pressure involved, and many of the suicides and suicidal attacks were involuntary.

[gonzomax]

@Mr.Miskatonic

You have a funny definition of ‘mop-up’. Given the casualty levels around Berlin. Even so:

Does this read like a ‘mop-up’ operation?!

and

“Mop-up” indeed. :rolleyes:

You are kidding aren’t you? Women and children mobilized at the last desperate minute ,would provide resistance to an army. They would run in terror and rightly so. I do understand that people want to believe we were justified in dropping the bombs. Hell you are able to convince yourself we needed to drop 2 of them. I do understand the need . We have to pretend we are not aggressive and and a warring society. It makes us feel better. Pick up your eyes.