No. It merely means that the women were not forced into the job by the military. Not did they face a 75% death rate like the “comfort women”
Germany occupying Poland in WW1 would have been a neat trick.
But besides that issue, yes there is a rather large difference in being a prostitute in a war theater because of monetary need and what was done to the comfort women. There is a vast, vast difference and your attempts to equate the two are pathetic apologetics.
It’s not a great comparison because current American Indians/African Americans suffered indirectly at the hands of the government whereas the comfort women suffered directly. The only way it really seems similar to me is that in both cases the governments are very concerned about creating expensive precedents. The Japanese government is very careful not to do anything to undermine the bilateral treaties it used after the war to compensate the countries it brutalized since it rightfully fears the torrent of lawsuits that would be unleashed upon them.
But I think there are some similarities at the individual level. I don’t feel that much personal emotional attachment to the genocide of the Indians or slavery. Intellectually I know they were terrible things but it’s really just history to me. I think that’s the way most (especially younger) Japanese feel about their atrocities during WW2. Any personal connection they have is just a revulsion for war.
Honest question: has any other group shown the repentance that the Germans have?
By ‘veneration of war criminals’ no doubt you are referring to Yasukuni Shrine. I personally think Japan could do itself a big favor and avoid lots of international PR headaches by simply not having the prime minister go there, or at least go on a different date, for cryin’ out loud. But at the same time, I also can see why the government doesn’t want another nation dictating when and where its leaders can worship. Another example of how the whole issue is simply political fodder, but anyway.
You do know that Yasukuni was built almost 100 years before WWII, specifically for soldiers that died serving the Japanese emperor? And not only for Japanese? (Some Taiwanese and Koreans are also enshrined)? You do know that the shrine is privately funded? That numerous major foreign politicians and dignitaries have visited the Shrine, including the Prince of Wales and the Dalai Lama?
I’m not sure how visiting a shrine somehow causes you to decide that none of the previous apologies were actually sincere. Just what other actions are you waiting for?
And also show a modicum of respect for the millions of victims whose blood in on the hands of some of those buried there. But what is respect for the dead as opposed to avoiding international PR headaches?
Please explain the ‘vast, vast’ differences. Please show me cites that outline death rates for brothels run by the German, French, and Japanese military. Show me cites documenting that brothels run by the German/French military were run by predominantly willing women.
I’m not apologizing for Japan. I’m demanding a consistent standard. I for one am sick and tired of having these same cliches brought out time and again, when people with no real first-hand experience, only going on foreign media-based reports*, cite the same old tired stuff without doing the research. I’ve done (and still do) the research. I do the reading, much of it for the last 20 years or so in Japanese. There are lots (and lots and lots) of places to yell at Japan about - and just because the US and other countries did similiar nasty things as well doesn’t mean Japan gets a free pass. BUT - do your research, and be consistent. If the only difference between what is happing with the Native Americans and the comfort women is the passage of time, all we’re saying is that the US or Australian governments did what Japan is apparently trying to do - wait for the first generation to die off. Shouting that Japan hasn’t apologized is hollow if you’re ignoring your own goverment’s actions - that’s called a double-standard.
On preview: villa, are you suggesting that Japan has never shown or offered respect for people that died under its occupuation in Asia? Because the link I posted earlier clearly shows that they have. Many times.
Specifically speaking, Yasukuni was built to honor people that died fighting for the Emperor. It’s not to enshrine only Japanese (I noted some foreigners are enshrined as well). Even members of Japan’s Self-Defense Force that die on duty aren’t enshrined there. It’s just got a specific use. Quite frankly I think the whole issue is stupid. Just like when Japan and South Korea/Hong Kong/China are fighting over a piece of rock in the middle of the ocean. If either China or Japan simply pulled a finger out they’d realize how stupid the issue really is. There are lots of things they could be arguing about - Yasukuni Shrine ain’t one of 'em.
*Reporting on Japan by the US publications tend to be one of two varieties: either 'Japan is a really hi-tech science fiction-type place full of sex-crazed perverts!" or “Japan is a really mysterious place full of sex-crazed perverts!”.
:rolleyes:
Sorry, I don’t have figures for the survival rates in the German & French brothels. :rolleyes:
Not what I argued, you are making a strawman.
That being said, I will ask you this: Do you know why the German Army in WW1 made military brothels?
Then do not make invalid comparisons.
Why not try reading what I said. Then maybe you will be able to comment on it.
Have they made apologies? Yes. Do I think the apologies have any degree of sincerity behind them? No. More importantly, do the people who suffered under the Japanese think there is any degree of sincerity behind them? No.
Yes, you said all that. I am glad you find it stupid. It is clear that you find the loss of international face for Japan of the visits there more important than the disrespect it shows to the victims. That they are other people there doesn’t matter. It is a big screw you to the rest of the world, and should be called out as such.
There’s no one buried at Yasukuni. The controversy involves the inclusion of the war criminals on a list of names of those whose spirits are enshrined there.
But in any case, it should be a dead issue. The last three prime ministers (Abe, Fukuda, Aso) did not visit Yasukuni, and the current prime minister made a big deal during the last election about how he wasn’t going to either.
My bad - I was writing a post comparing it to Bitzberg (?) Cemetary and the SS buried there, than cut out that part at the last minute.
If the Nazis were still in charge in Germany in August of 1945 and nuking them would hasten the end of the war and their ongoing atrocities, they should have been nuked.
The Japanese dictatorship (I’m not sure offhand what, if any, label for this regime is the preferred one) was still in charge in Japan in August 1945 and nuking them would hasten the end of the war and their ongoing atrocities, so they got nuked.
That’s the only “consistency” that really matters for this topic. The rest - trying to parse who was more evil than whom - is big fucking waste of time. They both deserved it, Germany just “lucked out” by getting clobbered early, and at no small price.
It’s probably already been mentioned, but even if we had the atomic bomb for use on Germany before the final assault (which we didn’t…we would have needed to have in in '44 in order for it to have been useful), we might not have used it anyway in this specific case. Remember, the Russian’s insisted that they wanted to do the heavy lifting wrt the final assault on Germany, and I think we were not displeased by this. The Russians took MASSIVE casualties (as did the Germans, of course) in the final series of battles culminating in the destruction of Berlin.
Conversely, even leaving aside the massive casualties we would have taken in the final assault on Japan, we did NOT want the Russian’s in on the kill (or, more specifically, cutting up large pieces of Japan for themselves), and this was another large factor in why we used the bombs as we did.
-XT
Actually, that raises an interesting question of nuking a city in eastern Germany - something of obvious military and strategic value, but also in the path of the oncoming Soviets. That might have been very tempting and, frankly, if it “encouraged” the Soviets to go home, better in the long run.
Has anybody had to? They got caught doing some horrible things and then did the worst thing possible, They lost.
Nope, not true. The USSR dragged their feet to declare war on Japan.
May 8, 1945 - Germany surrenders
August 6, 1945 - bombing of Hiroshima
August 8 - USSR declares war
August 9 - bombing of Nagasaki
Three months after Germany surrenders before the USSR declared war on Japan. It wasn’t until the day after the USA nuked Hiroshima that the USSR declared war on Japan. In fact, it is believed that the USSR was hoping to drag their feet so the USA could bleed itself in the Pacific. However, when the bombing of Hiroshima displayed a new powerful weapon and the inevitable surrender of Japan, the USSR decided to declare war on Japan so it could get a piece of the Japan empire: especially territory lost during the Russo-Japanese War, such as Kuril and Sakhalin Islands.
For crying out loud. Look at these stats. Russin casualties and deaths were enormous. Who the hell are you to say they should have jumped in earlier.
http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html
You’re credibility was shot with me around page 2.
If you honestly, seriously think we did anything on scale with Unit 731, then this thread is already a lost cause. :rolleyes:
The Japanese may not have caused such suffering on as large scale as the Nazis, but not for lack of trying.
The acts described in the link above go beyond the average warfare “raping and pillaging” Anyone who participated in such experiments would have to be a goddamned sociopath.
Um… cite?
Stalin agreed at Yalta to enter the war with Japan 3 months after the surrender of Germany. And he entered into the war precisely 3 months after the surrender of Germany. Are you claiming that Stalin somehow knew that the US would drop an atomic bomb in early August?
Likewise Skahalin, the Kurils, Port Arthur, a Mongolia independent from China, etc. were already negotiated and agreed to. Had the Japanese leadership achieved sanity, say in mid-June, and surrendered, the Soviets would have still received them all. Even in Korea, where the Soviets could have occupied all of the peninsula, Stalin stopped precisely where agreed. Even though the first Americans didn’t show up until a week into September.
Yes, it was a land grab on Stalin’s part but one that had been planned and agreed to months earlier. It had nothing, other than coincidental timing, to do with the atomic bombings.
No. Stalin didn’t know when the bomb was going to drop. He had agreed to declare war on Japan at Yalta, but he refused to actually do anything until after the USA dropped the bomb. He was in no hurry to declare war on the Japan because he was in no hurry to ending the war in the Pacific. However, when the nuke was pulled out, he couldn’t drag his feet anymore if he wanted a piece of the territories that Japan held. So he declared war.
And yes, I doubt he would have declared war even though he agreed to do it at Yalta.
But they didn’t. It takes time to stage major forces. The Soviets launched a major offensive against Japan on August 9th (invasion of Manchuria). They didn’t just pull those forces out of their ass…they had been building up since the fall of Germany in anticipation of going to war with Japan.
This is simply not true. The Soviets were moving significant forces from Germany (where they had been focused) to staging areas in Siberia. Even today you can’t turn forces on a dime (look how long it took the US to stage our forces for the invasion of Iraq…and that’s TODAY).
I have zero doubts that he would have done so. He WANTED to capture huge swaths of former Japanese territory, as well as large pieces of Japan itself. There is no basis, afaik, for your doubt that he would have declared war on Japan and been in on the invasion of the Japanese main Island without the atomic bomb.
-XT