# Atomic time signals are very weak in much of eastern US. Why no add broadcast stations?

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-time-signals-are-very-weak-in-much-of-eastern-us-why-no-add-broadcast-stations/499659>\
**Category:** Factual Questions\
**Created:** [June 13, 2009, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-time-signals-are-very-weak-in-much-of-eastern-us-why-no-add-broadcast-stations/499659 "2009-06-13T13:35:39Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 10\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\
**Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-time-signals-are-very-weak-in-much-of-eastern-us-why-no-add-broadcast-stations/499659/1 "2009-06-13T13:35:39Z")

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i have a real tough time getting a decent [timekeeping signal on](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signal)the Eastern Shore of Maryland. Why no additional towers for such a useful service? How much can it cost for a broadcast tower to cover the eastern US?

[edit] Radio time sources

> [@](#):
>
> A modern LF Radio clockThe telegraphic distribution of time signals was made obsolete by the use of AM, FM, shortwave radio, Internet Network Time Protocol servers as well as atomic clocks in GPS satellites.
> 
> The following radio stations broadcast time in both audible and machine readable time code form that can be used as references for radio clocks and radio-controlled watches:
> 
> In North America:  
> WWV in Fort Collins, USA (2.5, 5, 10, 15, 20 MHz),  
> WWVB in Fort Collins, USA (60 kHz, Radiated power 50kW)  
> WWVH in Kauai, Hawaii, USA (2.5, 5, 10, 15 MHz)  
> CHU in Ottawa, Canada (3330, 7850 and 14670 kHz)  
> The audio portions of the WWV and WWVH broadcasts can also be heard by telephone. The time announcements are normally delayed by less than 30 ms when using land lines from within the continental United States, and the stability (delay variation) is generally \< 1 ms. When mobile phones are used, the delays are often more than 100 ms due to the multiple access methods used to share cell channels. In rare instances when the telephone connection is made by satellite, the time is delayed by 250 to 500 ms. To hear these broadcasts, dial (303) 499-7111 for WWV (Colorado), and (808) 335-4363 for WWVH (Hawaii). Callers are disconnected after 2 minutes. These are not toll-free numbers; callers outside the local calling area are charged for the call at regular long distance rates.

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**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\
**Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-time-signals-are-very-weak-in-much-of-eastern-us-why-no-add-broadcast-stations/499659/2 "2009-06-13T14:19:55Z")

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I used to call the US Naval Observatory in DC. Now a GPS receiver is all I use.

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**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\
**Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-time-signals-are-very-weak-in-much-of-eastern-us-why-no-add-broadcast-stations/499659/3 "2009-06-13T14:29:55Z")

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> [@sailor](#):
>
> I used to call the US Naval Observatory in DC. Now a GPS receiver is all I use.

GPS is great but not for indoor clocks.

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**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\
**Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-time-signals-are-very-weak-in-much-of-eastern-us-why-no-add-broadcast-stations/499659/4 "2009-06-13T14:38:09Z")

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The short answer is that WWV(H) is all but obsolete since GPS provides a good time signal which has the advantage of being computer-accessible. WWV was designed for the era when humans listened with their ears & set clocks with their fingers.

I don’t have any info that there is such a plan, but I would not be surprised to see one or the other shut down in the next decade.

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**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\
**Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-time-signals-are-very-weak-in-much-of-eastern-us-why-no-add-broadcast-stations/499659/5 "2009-06-13T14:50:55Z")

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Internet time is accurate to a few mS - how much better do you need?

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**Author:** ![HorseloverFat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e8cbc/32.png) [@HorseloverFat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HorseloverFat)\
**Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-time-signals-are-very-weak-in-much-of-eastern-us-why-no-add-broadcast-stations/499659/6 "2009-06-13T15:35:15Z")

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Use an NTP client on a computer. That works indoors. Windows has a built in one.

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**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\
**Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-time-signals-are-very-weak-in-much-of-eastern-us-why-no-add-broadcast-stations/499659/7 "2009-06-13T16:38:14Z")

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The issue is that there are a lot of clocks and watches that use the atomic signals to automatically set themselves, and these clocks and watches are not set up to interface with the internet. So it does seem as though a repeater station somewhat closer than Fort Collins would be a good idea.

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**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\
**Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-time-signals-are-very-weak-in-much-of-eastern-us-why-no-add-broadcast-stations/499659/8 "2009-06-13T18:28:52Z")

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> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> The short answer is that WWV(H) is all but obsolete since GPS provides a good time signal which has the advantage of being computer-accessible. WWV was designed for the era when humans listened with their ears & set clocks with their fingers.
> 
> I don’t have any info that there is such a plan, but I would not be surprised to see one or the other shut down in the next decade.

Pity. WWV went on the air in 1923. It originally broadcast from the Bureau of Standards building in Washington, which gave it good coverage of the eastern half of the country when most of the clocks, ears, and fingers lived there. During the 1930s it began sending A-440 for tuning musical instruments, and still does.

I know a Luddite in Maine who sets her alarm clock every night by CHU - over an RCA Victor all-wave console that’s so old you can make your own records with it.

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**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\
**Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-time-signals-are-very-weak-in-much-of-eastern-us-why-no-add-broadcast-stations/499659/9 "2009-06-14T23:59:18Z")

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Good accuracy standalone clocks for civilian use are practically all based on the WWVB signal, and I can’t get them to work in my house either - a great frustration. If you read NIST’s advice on how to design such a clock, they point out that building the antenna into the body of the clock will impare reception and limit the positions the clock can be placed in, but recommend doing it anyway. I think WWVB is nifty and have toyed with the idea of erecting a big tuned loop antenna in the trees out back so I could receive it, but this is such a dumb use of my overtaxed time that it will wait for at least my 5th reincarnation from now.

More literally, I think the reason they don’t build another tower for it closer to the east coast is that it takes quite a large antenna to broadcast a 60 kHz signal effectively, and they don’t get all that much money to provide the service in the first place. I read about their major overhaul of the transmitter and antenna system a few years ago, and I am vaguely remembering expenditures in the tens of thousands.

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**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\
**Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atomic-time-signals-are-very-weak-in-much-of-eastern-us-why-no-add-broadcast-stations/499659/10 "2009-06-15T01:41:18Z")

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I get reasonably good GPS reception indoors in a small, wooden house.