# Attack of the Clones- did anyone else find this disturbing? (spolerish) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 7, 2003, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124 "2003-10-07T18:35:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124/21 "2003-10-08T00:15:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by burundi \* > Of course, I also found it disturbing that Amidala continued to be all gooshy about Anakin even after he slaughtered the village of sand people. That’s one couple that deserves each other. “And not just the men. But the women. And the children! I killed them **all**!! I **HATE** them!! They were **animals - and I SLAUGHTERED them like animals!!!** ” “There, there. Blue Hawaii?” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124/22 "2003-10-08T00:28:29Z")
Actually, if you’ve read the books, you’ll know that the Clone Wars preceded the Empire. Now then-I just finished the novelization of AOTC. And it goes into how Obi-Wan (mmmm…Ewan…) ponders about the ethics of using a clone army. I think it’s more out of the realization that they have no choice. (Now, why they don’t just create their own droid army, I don’t know…hmmmm) But one thing is obvious-Palpatine is playing everyone for suckers. (And it IS Palpatine who will be Emperor. The books and movie novelizations have established this). ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124/23 "2003-10-08T00:54:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BrotherCadfael \* > I haven’t seen AOTC yet (some films are worth seeing in the theater, some worth seeing on tape, and \*\*some are worth waiting for the network broadcast), \*\* You know, while I realize that that’s a um, clever and, uh, highly original way to put down AOTC, the fact that you would watch ANY theatrical movie, especially one with so many special effects, on _network broadcast_\*, with its editings and constant interruptions and stupid commericals, says far more negative things about you than the movie (I’m picturing Jordy Verrill here). To say any more would probably be pit-worthy. Network broadcast…ugh! ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124/24 "2003-10-08T00:55:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ArchiveGuy \* > **The first mention of clones is made almost as an after-thought. Are they considered slaves? Do they have any rights? Are all cloning operations clandestine, or just the one on Kamino? There is nothing in the film to give you any sense of what cloning means.** I think the best way to view it (and also the most interesting) is that the clones are not only legal, but there is no real moral objection to them – assume they’re paid, well treated, and that they have a choice as to whether they wish to enlist or not. The point is simply that the Republic never had a large standing army and liked it that way – they never had any enemy they needed to fight. The Senate and the Jedi Council both begin to think that _maybe_ it’s not a bad idea to develop an army for limited use, but mostly they figure it’s not a good idea because it changes the fundamental tenor of the Republic, which isn’t a military power but it more like an infintely successful version of the EU. However, due to Palpatine’s machinations, when a real military threat arises, the Republic is forced to use the conveniently materializing army which nobody wanted but is now the seemingly lesser of two evils. Suddenly, the Republic is a military power and the army has been legitimated. Soon, one can expect that Palpatine will create new threats which require his army to suspend the power of the Senate and impose martial law, and it’ll be too late for anyone to do anything about it. As I’ve said elsewhere, there is a quite clever political powerplay film lurking in this trilogy, it’s just hidden in all the glurge. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124/25 "2003-10-08T00:56:00Z")
Drats! Preview! ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124/26 "2003-10-08T04:11:16Z")
By the way,…ugh, I’m tempted to post a spoiler thing here…let me just say that [TheForce.net](http://TheForce.net) has some interesting updates on the “Is Palpatine the clone of Sidious?” debate. You’re warned, though: their reports DO settle the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124/27 "2003-10-08T04:27:58Z")
They never address the ethics of “enslaving” clones, but they never address the ethics of enslaving apparently intelligent droids, either. I know Obi-Wan said droids can’t think, but come on. R2-D2 has more personality than everyone in Jabba’s Palace combined. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124/28 "2003-10-08T04:53:47Z")
[quoite]I think the best way to view it (and also the most interesting) is that the clones are not only legal, but there is no real moral objection to them – assume they’re paid, well treated, and that they have a choice as to whether they wish to enlist or not. [/quote] This is certainly a most generous interpretation, but incredibly implausible. They are being custom-made for a specific purpose–what is the likelihood that they have any choice whatsoever in their commission? If somehow a “batch” goes wrong (not up to spec), are they just going to be set free? Kamino is a factory with an assembly line for its “product”. I’d argue this is the least interesting way of handling the cloning issue–by not making it an issue at all. Of course, from a screenwriter’s perspective, it’s the most convenient, since it prevents you from having to really explain anything in great detail. > [@](#): > > As I’ve said elsewhere, there is a quite clever political powerplay film lurking in this trilogy, it’s just hidden in all the glurge. [David St. Hubbins]It’s such a fine line between stupid, and clever. [/David St. Hubbins]However allegedly clever this plot may be (and that’s certainly open to debate), the handling of it has made it irreperably stupid. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124/29 "2003-10-08T05:08:13Z")
Ach! &\*@$ coding. ---
**Author:** ![Moo\_the\_Magic\_Cow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@Moo\_the\_Magic\_Cow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moo_the_Magic_Cow)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124/30 "2003-10-08T05:08:40Z")
**adam yax** , I thought the same thing about Yoda’s line. Also the damn title doesn’t make any sense. It’s not like the clone attack was the most pivotal scene in the movie. It was just the last 20 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![sajwalke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/edb3f5/32.png) [@sajwalke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sajwalke)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124/31 "2003-10-08T10:13:27Z")
> [@](#): > > I haven’t seen AOTC yet (some films are worth seeing in the theater, some worth seeing on tape, and some are worth waiting for the network broadcast), but I had always assumed, right from my very first viewing of the original Star Wars film, that the Clone Wars would have been fought to stop the evil Empire from using clones. It was something of a shock to learn that the clones were on the good side… I though the clones _were_ on the bad side, and the good guys just don’t know it yet. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124/32 "2003-10-08T11:57:12Z")
[quote] Why would there be no debate on the issue? Could it have been that the cloud of the Dark Side of the Force that was hanging over Coruscant was affecting their thinking? I mean, they have Darth Sidious practically sitting in their collective lap and they haven’t detected his presence yet. [quote] sort of spoiler, but not exactly] Sorry, but as far back as TPM they indicated that Sidious is Palpatine and becomes Emperor, period. Lucas isn’t one to use “Gotcha!” moments. > [@](#): > > And the “no one senses a Sith Honcho in their midst” did bother me a lot. But then we ARE assuming D. Sidious and E. Palpatine are the same person … even though we’ve seen clones all over the place … just sayin’ is all. Well, this guy’s apparently in Yoda’s league, so its no surprise he can fool them. I believe in the upcomng film they’ll explain a bit about why the Jedi are failing, implying that Sidious is > [@](#): > > Just out of curiosity, if one’s ability to use the force is correlated highly with the midichlorine count in one’s blood, how will the off-the-scale reading of Anakin be affected when he gets mangled in the next movie and has all his limbs replaced? You’d think with less biological real estate, his midi count (and powers) would drop significantly. Possibly. Possibly not. Thing is, the correlation doesn’t mean the midi-chlorians cause force ability, otherwise they could simply manufacture Jedi with drugs and genetic recombinations. In fact, its been proven that as afar as we know, its utterly impossible for Force talent to have an absolute genetic causation. [http://www.stardestroyer.net/TPMRevelations/index.html#TheForce](http://www.stardestroyer.net/TPMRevelations/index.html#TheForce) > [@](#): > > I though the clones _were_ on the bad side, and the good guys just don’t know it yet. They aren’t on anyone’s side; they simply follow orders. From what I’ve seen, they are now working for the Republic. When the Empire takes over, they’ll work for that. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124/33 "2003-10-08T12:15:51Z")
Palpatine and Sidious are the same person. Sifo-Dyas is Sidious (not even a clever pseudonym). This isn’t a cloning issue, Sidious is a Master of Disguise. He is many people. He has carefully set up the entire situation just to create unrest - he is not only on every side, he IS every side. He is orchestrating the Republic, he is orchestrating the Federation, he is orchestrating the Jedi, he is the Sith. He has foreseen that every careful move he makes will shape the destiny of the Galaxy. His singular misstep is that Anakin’s son, Luke, manages to influence his Father at the last minute. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124/34 "2003-10-08T12:52:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GuanoLad \* > \*\*His singular misstep is that Anakin’s son, Luke, manages to influence his Father at the last minute. \*\* SPOILER! (j/k ;)) ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124/35 "2003-10-08T13:03:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Equipoise \* > \*_You know, while I realize that that’s a um, clever and, uh, highly original way to put down AOTC, the fact that you would watch ANY theatrical movie, especially one with so many special effects, on network broadcast_, with its editings and constant interruptions and stupid commericals, says far more negative things about you than the movie (I’m picturing Jordy Verrill here). To say any more would probably be pit-worthy. > > Network broadcast…ugh! \*\* It’s actually a take-off on (Mark Twain’s?) quip: “Worth seeing? Yes, but not worth going to see.” My take on it (that some films are worth seeing in the theater, some worth seeing on tape, and some are worth waiting for the network broadcast) pretty much does capture exactly the way I feel about some films (including AOTC). I’m interested enough to see the movie at some point, but don’t care enough to instist on seeing it uninterrupted…and if I NEVER get around to seeing it, no big deal. If this be Pit-Worthy, gentlemen, make the most of it! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124/36 "2003-10-08T13:19:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GuanoLad \* > \*\*Palpatine and Sidious are the same person. Sifo-Dyas is Sidious (not even a clever pseudonym). \*\* Am I missing something? It’s explicitly stated that there _was_ a Jedi Master called Sifo-Dyas, and that he’s been dead for years. If I’m not missing anything it’s pretty certain that Sidious posed as the late Sifo-Dyas, but he didn’t pick the pseudonym for himself; it was just the one he took advantage of, probably by killing Sifo-Dyas himself. Now I think about it, I have to wonder how Sith get their titles. Who picked the name Sidious in the first place? Luckily, this question will definitely be answered in Ep III. ---
**Author:** ![soakman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47774/32.png) [@soakman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soakman)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124/37 "2003-10-08T13:31:36Z")
Somewhat off topic—but has anyone else noticed that Joseph Lieberman looks something like Chancellor Palpatine? It’s just enough to make me hold off on wanting to allow him any additional executive powers… ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124/38 "2003-10-08T15:01:32Z")
Yes, **soakman** , I remember thinking that the first time I saw TPM. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124/39 "2003-10-08T15:56:18Z")
Re: ethics of cloning–I think one thing to keep in mind is that no one in the SWUniverse seems to have any REAL problems with slavery. This is a feudal society, really, with only the bare semblance of a republic (it would be more accurate, I think, to say that the star SYSTEMS are part of a representative government, but that the people within those systems aren’t necessarily in one; basically like the UN–a bunch of sovereign nations, all ruling themselves willy-nilly). The Jedi sure don’t seem perturbed by the way things are run on Tatooine … just that they can’t spend their money there. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124/40 "2003-10-08T16:04:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Palpatine and Sidious are the same person. Sifo-Dyas is Sidious (not even a clever pseudonym). Its been suggested, but I don’t believe it, and certainly there is no evidence for it. I’ll believe that Palpatine can be the Dark Lord of the Sith, but not that he was a former Jedi Master. I’ll accept that he can cloud Yoda’s vision, but not that Yoda would never have noticed they used to work together. Its certainly possible that Sidious used the name of Sifo-Dyas to order the clone army. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/attack-of-the-clones-did-anyone-else-find-this-disturbing-spolerish/206124.md?page=3)